Interview with the President of the Government on the programme "Los Desayunos de TVE"

Madrid

Sergio Martin: Mariano Rajoy, good morning to you.

President of the Government: Good morning.

S. Martin: Thank you for inviting us to breakfast on the day after.

President of the Government: It's a pleasure to be here with you.

S. Martin: There are many issues to deal with, as our colleague Diego was telling us just now on the set of "Los Desayunos", in the long half hour we have ahead of us; and of course we're obviously going to begin with the many things that were said at the Partido Popular's [People's Party] congress this weekend. But first, with this 95% that I mentioned to you just now, do you feel stronger than ever, with more support than ever from your people?

President of the Government: I've always felt strongly supported by my party. In fact, in recent years, which as people know, have been very tough - they were tough for all the Spanish people, because we went through a tremendous crisis, but they were also tough for the Government, which had to take decisions that were not easy, but that in the end have produced results - the People's Party has always been behind us, supporting, encouraging the Government and urging it to continue with its task. So I have felt strongly supported by my fellow party members and yesterday, it was really an honour that over 95% of the delegates who had the right to vote did so in my favour and for the candidature I presented. It is an honour that places many obligations on me as a party activist.

S. Martin: But look how the story has changed in a year. Less than a year ago there were many who said to Marian Rajoy that enough is enough, that yes, he had to step aside and let the new generations, others, take over. And less than a year on, you are the President of the Government and have been re-elected Chairman of the People's Party; and if you look at Europe, you have a less troubled situation, despite the minority government, than many others. How things have changed!

President of the Government: That's true. In politics, and in general, in any facet of life, there are better times and there are worse times. What is important is to be aware of what you have to do at all times and to be aware of what you can do and what your responsibilities are.

It's true that there were some people in 2016 who said that I had to go, which is absurd, because if someone who wins the elections, twice, has to go, then what does everyone else have to do? But, well, those are things that happen in the world we live in. My party never asked me to go: quite the contrary, they backed me and supported me, and thanks to that, what happened is, in fact, what was bound to happen: the People's Party won the elections, it doesn't have a majority, so it's reasonable that is should govern, but it has to reach agreements and understandings with other political parties. In the end, common sense and reason prevail.

S. Martin: You said, for example, analysing some of the things that we heard this weekend, that "if it works, don't change it," in relation to the deputy secretaries. "If something works don't change it." You also said that you were keeping María Dolores de Cospedal in her position of general secretary of the party, and much has been said about that. And you announced a change: the creation of the position of general coordinator of the party, Fernando Martínez Maíllo. My question is: does that mean that there was something that was not working well?

President of the Government: It means, basically, that María Dolores de Cospedal is the general secretary of the party and is also the Minister of Defence. So when you are in government, your fundamental priority has to be the government; so you have to look to the interests of all the people in Spain, and that also means that I, the Chairman of the People's Party, am the President of the Government and what I really dedicate myself to is my duty, that of acting as President of the Government. So what we have done is something that had already been done by the People's Party on other occasions, when we were in Government: appoint someone to deal with the day-to-day life of the party, and that someone is Fernando Martínez Maíllo.

In any event, I have to say that I have in fact kept the team because it has worked and because I already changed a significant part of the team half-way through 2015. In other words, Fernando Maíllo, Andrea Levy, Javier Maroto and Pablo Casado have been in the party leadership for a year and a half. They have done well and it seems absurd to me to change for the sake of change; that makes no sense. But they have formed part of the leadership of the party that has won two general elections in a row in Spain in circumstances that were very difficult for our party, which was the target of criticism, in some cases with reason, in others less so. We had to govern at the most difficult of times, but there were also many people who in the end appreciated what we did and the results we achieved.

S. Martin: Are the duties of each already well defined or is that a job that still has to be done? At this time you already know that there has been a great deal of speculation as to whether the general secretary of the party would lose some of her powers.

President of the Government: No, she loses them to the same extent as I do. I am the party chairman and María Dolores is the general secretary, and she's done very well, and that's why she remains general secretary. But neither of us is going to be very hands-on. I basically go to the meetings of the Management Committee, which are every Monday, and deal with some issues; but of course, the day-to-day matters are the responsibility of Fernando Maíllo. María Dolores and I will be responsible for some issues that will require our attention or our presence. But I insist, I've already had that experience: when Álvarez-Cascos was general secretary of the party, he also was First Vice-President of the Government. Then José María Aznar decided, in my opinion quite rightly, to appoint a general coordinator, who at one point in time was Ángel Acebes, and at another, Javier Arenas.

S. Martin: Well, you've just mentioned José María Aznar. Did you miss him at your side at this congress?

President of the Government: I mentioned him in my last speech, where I recalled Manuel Fraga, who was the chairman and founder of the party, and I also recalled José María Aznar. The two of them were party chairmen for many years, and they are people who will be remembered in the history, and in the positive history, of our party.

S. Martin: I imagine that in these last twenty-four hours - less than twenty-four hours have passed: in these last few hours - you have had the time to read some of the interpretations made, which we the journalists have suggested, about these appointments or the structure of the People's Party. One of the things I've read, I've read it and I'm sure you have too, is that once more Mariano Rajoy has acted like Mariano Rajoy; that once more the President of the Government has tried to find a balance of power, both within the party and in the relationship between the People's Party and the Government. Is there anything true about this balancing act?

President of the Government: There's one thing true out of the two you've just mentioned. One is clearly true: that Mariano Rajoy has acted like Mariano Rajoy. It would be surprising if I acted like Pablo Iglesias or anyone else there. In other words, I am what I am. Like everyone, I suppose, with my faults and all, maybe more than others, and my positive points, which may be fewer. But everyone is as they are and can't change.

So, balances? No, I don't think I've done any balancing. Consider that María Dolores de Cospedal has been general secretary of the party since 2008, which was a very difficult time for me; and Soraya Sáenz de Santamaría, who I suppose is the person you are referring to, has been First Vice-President of the Government since I came to Government at the end of 2011. Really, they are two people who continue there for a reason that is very easy to understand; I trust them and they have also done very well. And, as they have done very well, I say: why should I replace them? That doesn't make any sense. I have replaced many people on other occasions because they went elsewhere; but the fact is that these two have done very well and I am very grateful for their work and their effort. I am happy and so it's true - if I said so yesterday, I don't remember it - that if something works, don't change it. But that is a statement of simple common sense.

S. Martin: You said so with reference to the deputy secretaries.

Another of the of the most notable issues, looking obviously to what has made the biggest impact, is the amendment related to the accumulation of posts. Finally, the amendment was not approved by only a difference of twenty-five votes and what is more with two resignations on the way due to how the voting was carried out. How would you interpret that? In fact, of the three thousand delegates, only 639 voted. What happened there?

President of the Government: It was a congress where five motions were presented on five important issues. You refer to one, which is the party's statutes, and there were four thousand amendments. There was some preparatory work by the speakers who had to reach pacts and agreements, and there, if you want to present an amendment, it is submitted to a vote. If you prefer to reach an agreement, then the result of the transaction is not submitted to a vote.

What happened was that there were very many people who had a way of looking at things that was different from how they were seen in the motion. There was an attempt to reach agreements, and sometimes they were successful and at other times, not. The result was well known, but in any event, I believe that some much exaggerated positions have been held on this matter. I don't believe that it was an amendment against anyone, rather, perhaps in many cases they were amendments that have their origin in the provincial organisations and for reasons that have nothing to do with this.

But in any event, one thing is clear: it's good if the person who has a post can give it their full dedication; but there are some exceptions Of course, I'm not going to dedicate myself fully to being chairman of the People's Party; I will dedicate myself to it, but a little, at weekends, on Mondays, and so on. The same is true of María Dolores and that's why we appointed a general coordinator.

S. Martin: Another notable issue is the limitation on periods in office. Finally, it has not been put on the statutes, and that... I recall now a phrase that was spoken by none other than Fernando Martínez Maíllo. He said "we have Mariano Rajoy here for some time, for years." Should we interpret this as meaning that you feel yourself with the strength, with the will, to run as candidate again? I know that you'll tell me that there's a long way to go... or maybe not.

President of the Government: Well, you're right. Really, look, I've just be re-elected as President of the Government, just now, at the end of October - that's three months and little more - and party chairman yesterday. Of course, wondering about what I am going to do in some indeterminate future time would be a little risky on my part. In other words, how I feel, I feel great, and that's why I stood for party chairman.

The truth is that I feel very well, with a great deal of enthusiasm. I believe that we haven't completed our task of government. Spain has had three good years growth and jobs are being created; but we experienced five years, the worst crisis in history, with negative growth and job destruction. I would like to work to make sure that there are twenty million people in work in Spain. So have to create between 400,000 and 500,000 jobs in Spain over these years, and I believe that can be done.

So I am eager for this, I am enthusiastic, I know what has to be done, I also know that what mustn't be done is very important as well; and we'll see about the rest.

A limitation on terms in office does not exist in Europe. There's no country in Europe where the terms in office are limited, because, why, if people want to vote for someone...? In other words, Ms Merkel will stand now, again, for election, and why should she not be allowed to do so, if people want to vote for Ms Merkel? That is the classic situation in presidential systems, above all in America. In America there is a limitation on terms and there are limitations in other countries; but not here, not in the United Kingdom, nor Germany, Italy, Spain, in fact in none of them. I don't know of any country in the European Union where that is the case.

S. Martin: But did the agreement with Ciudadanos include this limitation on terms in office, or not?

President of the Government: Yes, the agreement with Ciudadanos included talking about this matter. I'm prepared to do so. There is a problem. It can be done, above all, in the presidential systems, but of course this is a system where the President of the Government is elected in Parliament, not directly by the people; although the people elect a party and see who the party's candidate is.

So they are different systems. I believe that this must be a voluntary decision. In my opinion, I believe that is the most reasonable. So with that in mind, we'll talk with Ciudadanos and with everyone.

S. Martin: Many things of some importance were debated this weekend. I would like to ask you about one of them, the social motion, because the issue of surrogate motherhood has also generated a great deal of expectation. The People's Party emerges from this congress without any official line. Are you going to leave the official position of the People's Party on surrogate motherhood to the experts?

President of the Government: No, we don't leave anything in the hands of the experts. What we do ask from the experts is that they explain things to us, the pros and cons. Now we have appointed a committee of experts on regional funding, for example; but they are not going to decide what the Government must do, or the position of the People's Party, or anyone's position. The fact is that in this life it's a good idea to listen to people who know about things; and we know about some things and less about others. So I always try to ask so that I don't make a mistake when a decision has to be made.

It is really an issue of enormous complexity. There are people in favour and people against; and what I say is: we can't resolve it in two minutes, here, in an amendment at two o'clock at night, which is when the debate on this issue ended yesterday; so we are going to listen to other people, because we should not trivialise the issue.

One of the things I said yesterday is: it's a good idea first to think about things and then decide on them, and not the other way round. There are people who like to decide first, and think later. Well, I don't think that procedure is the most effective.

S. Martin: In any event, I understand that in this case, the case of the debate on surrogate motherhood; it is a good example of where to apply what is called the conscience clause in voting, which was also discussed this weekend.

President of the Government: Yes, we talked about the possibility, provided that it is authorised by the party's National Executive Committee, on questions that affect people's deepest convictions. They are two or three issues that could affect some people's ethical or moral convictions. This is something that exists in a substantial number of European countries; but it only refers to matters that affect people's convictions or private thoughts.

S. Martin: Let's talk about Catalonia, which is an issue that also took up part of your speech at the congress of the People's Party. Every time journalists ask you about the famous referendum, the President of the Government tells us that you don't want to and can't flout the law.

President of the Government: That's right.

S. Martin: However, from the other point of view, that of the people in favour of independence, or at least those in favour of the right to decide, they say: "the President of the Government can't simply point to the Constitution every time we raise the issue with him, something more has to be done." What more can the President of the Government do?

President of the Government: I'll tell you, but you have to comply with the law. One of the things I said yesterday is that it is unthinkable that we should discuss here about which laws should be obeyed and which not, or which parts of a law should be obeyed and which not. That is absurd. For two governments or two parliaments to discuss about how to flaunt the law is crazy, because if that happens we can get rid of the rest of the laws. People will say "if the law is not respected, I won't respect it either," and then we won't have the rule of law or a democratic state, but a situation where the rules by which we regulate our lives together are destroyed.

So the law does not allow it. If someone wants to change the Constitution, there is a procedure for doing so. Now, what I say is that I don't want to. I don't want to because I believe that we are better together, there are more of us, we are joined by history, we are the oldest nation in Europe, and we are joined by affective, personal links, people who have got married, people who have formed unions... In other words, all this is ridiculous at a time when the world is moving towards a process of union and not a process of separation or division. This is also terrible for Catalan society. They would exit the Eurozone, they would exit the European Union, they would exit the Single Market and would have very serious economic problems in meeting their obligations.

So, what do I think has to be done in Catalonia, what is my opinion? First, talk about real issues and, when there is a Conference of Presidents and we talk about regional finance or care for dependency, we have to attend because those in power can't abdicate their responsibilities as leaders.

So first, let's talk about real issues, of which there are many: dependency, how regions are funded, how suppliers are paid, infrastructures, the Mediterranean Corridor, the Rodalies commuter rail lines, etc. Second, there is something that is very important: the institutions must serve all the citizens and there are some institutions in Catalonia that are only in favour of the citizens with a separatist ideology; that is the second major priority that there is in Catalonia at the present time. Third, we have to recover internal cohesion, because it has been broken in Catalonia; there are discussions and debates, even among family members, about the separatist movement that has been launched. That is a major priority.

So that is what I believe has to be done in the near future.

S. Martin: There are also people on the other side - let's put all the criticism on the table - that the Government is not sufficiently firm with those who break the law: for example, the Catalan Government, or the example of the 9th of November, 2014.

President of the Government: Yes, that's true; there are people who hold those opinions. I believe that you have to be forceful in what is basic, and the Government's position is very clear: very clear and very understandable. In other words, the Government has an obligation, probably the most important obligation, to comply with, which is to guarantee the unity of Spain, national sovereignty and the equality of all the citizens. But given that, we won't be shouting or picking fights with each other. This is the position, because that is what we want, and that is what the laws oblige us to do; for these two reasons. In everything else people can say whatever they want. The courts have acted. There are some people who broke the law on 9 November; the courts acted, and we are seeing the results now; so the rule of law, the laws and the institutions are working. And that is what should concern us.

S. Martin: Many analysts say that the major issue you are faced with in this government is Catalonia. Do you agree?

President of the Government: Yes, it's one of the issues that undoubtedly as President of the Government concern me most, when there are people who take up important institutional responsibilities in the Parliament of Catalonia and in the Government of Catalonia, who start on a crazy path that leads to nowhere. Here what they want is for Spanish people not to be able to decide on what Spain is and that only part of Spain should decide, which is absolutely crazy, and what's more they want to do it by abolishing the law, which is what makes it doubly crazy.

It is undoubtedly a major problem, which we are going to try to resolve with the greatest common sense and balance, though it's difficult.

S. Martin: Do you believe that there will be early elections in Catalonia. New elections?

President of the Government: I don't know, it's difficult to foresee. There is something in Catalonia that is terrible, which is another of the great priorities for the coming times: a Government of a place like Catalonia that is so important, with the history that it has, with a population of seven million, cannot depend on an extremist party such as the CUP [Popular Unity Candidacy]. Really, that the Catalan Government, where the leaders are a party that always represented the Catalan bourgeoisie, is now conditioned, blackmailed and threatened by these people is very dangerous. And I'm not only referring to the core issue, which is the issue of Catalan independence; I'm also referring to something that is enormously important: there could be a change in the economic and social model in Catalonia that could lead to a situation that in my opinion would not be good for anyone.

S. Martin: Talking about early elections, electoral processes - and this is also something that will sound familiar to you - what is the budget situation? Is there any chance of approving the 2017 budget, or are you already thinking of the 2018 budget; or as has been published in recent days, do you think that as the opinion polls are favourable to the People's Party and you don't manage to find support for the budget, are you prepared to go for new elections?

President of the Government: I'll tell you what I'm going to do. I'm not going to call elections. That is crazy. We've had two elections in 2016 in Spain, something that has never happened before, ten months of an acting government... that causes harm, and if things went reasonably well, it was because the economic reforms are bringing results. So my intention is that this term in office should last as long as it can, because it's normal, it's reasonable, and I believe it's positive to give this message.

Second, I'm going to present the 2017 budget. I'm going to present it, because I believe I have to. I presented the 2016 budget at the time, and it was approved, and now I'm going to present that for 2017. There is one positive thing: we have already approved the "expenditure ceiling"; in other words, what we can spend, the income heading, and we have also approved a division of the deficit between the different levels of government to deal with our obligations in Europe. That is important.

So based on that, now there is a budget in force, which is the extended 2016 budget; but I will present the 2017 budget and try to reach an agreement on it. In fact, we're going to talk to everyone. We've talked a lot with Ciudadanos and also with Coalición Canaria, we're going to talk to PNV and we're going to talk to PSOE, and see what happens next.

S. Martin: Are you confident about pushing it through? What does your intuition tell you? You have a lot of experience in this and know something about this.

President of the Government: Yes, but when your ideas are not clear, it's not a good idea to place bets, even if in this case you don't lose any euros; because that's not the case. But I don't know. I say that I'll try and in any case I'll present it.

S. Martin: With respect to a minority government, as we're talking about governing in a minority, you said at the start of the government's term in office - which is now over one hundred days, 105 days I think it is - that you were aware you had to talk a lot and reach a lot of agreements. How are you doing?

President of the Government: Well. I have to do it and have to give ground on some things, I said so in the speech yesterday, because the message that we received in the end from all the polling booths is: understanding and dialogue. I've taken note of this message and begun to do so, haven't I?

I believe there are some positive things in this first stage: first, approval, as I said before, of the expenditure ceiling, and that has been very important; we have reached some initial agreements on education and we are going to see if between all of us we can create an educational system that will last for many years; we have also started up the commission on pension reform, where reaching an agreement is important; and a Conference of Presidents of the Autonomous Regions, where we have talked about regional funding, dependency and the demographic problem. I believe that some steps are being taken in the right direction. On European issues we agree, that is key for the future of Spain; on security and defence as well.

We'll see if all of us are capable of meeting the challenge; but, I repeat, that is everyone's responsibility. Above all, mine, because I am head of the party that has most seats; but those seats aren't enough, so others also have their responsibility. And I hope that we all rise to the occasion.

S. Martin: As we're talking about others, what is your relationship with the PSOE of Javier Fernández? I'm asking because it's said, people say, that you have a very good relationship on a personal level, that you talk very often and get on very well together.

President of the Government: Mr Fernández appears very reasonable and very sensible to me. I'm not a socialist, but that's neither here nor there. So the relations are very much as they should be. He supports the PSOE positions and I obviously support those of the People's Party; and if we can understand each other, all well and good; and if not, what can we do about it?

But it's true that I have to talk to the PSOE; first, because I need to in many cases, and second, because I believe that on the major issues of State the PSOE and People's Party, which continue to be the two main parties in Spain, must agree. In fact, you will recall that my position after the December 2015 elections and after those of June 2016 was that Spain needs a coalition between PP, PSOE and Ciudadanos. It wasn't possible, but now we'll have to understand each other because, if not, government is not an option.

S. Martin: Are you afraid that this good climate of understanding, which so far has allowed you to push through the expenditure ceiling and the rise in the minimum wage, in other words there is agreement with the PSOE; are you afraid that after the primary elections to be held by the PSOE this good climate will be cut short?

President of the Government: I hope not, but in any event, I'm afraid that I have as much right to an opinion about the primaries in the Socialist Party as I do about the primaries of any other party that isn't mine, don't I? So I'll accept what the members of the Socialist Party decide. They are the ones who have to elect whomever they consider right and appropriate; but I'll try to have the most reasonable relationship possible with them, because that's what is good for Spain.

S. Martin: I'm not going to ask you who you prefer out of the three names on the table at present, Susana Díaz, Patxi López and Pedro Sánchez. But after the "no is no" and the months during which you couldn't reach an agreement, I understand that in principle it would be much more difficult for you to reach an agreement with Pedro Sánchez than with the others, wouldn't it?

President of the Government: I'll try with anyone that is chosen by the members of the Socialist Party, but I can't and won't go into that. I don't like others - and I'm talking about other parties - to talk about what we're doing in our congresses and for many years I have learned to respect what my political adversaries do.

S. Martin: Well, I'm also going to ask you about what happened seven kilometres from the Caja Mágica complex, in Vistalegre 2, where you already know that in the end Pablo Iglesias's list won. What is your assessment of that? Do you believe that it would have been easier for you to reach an understanding with Íñigo Errejón or ...?

President of the Government: I believe that it would not be very easy to reach an understanding with Podemos, with anyone who was their leader, because really I don't see Podemos supporting the People's Party budget, and they have really not approved anything we have presented in Parliament. Perhaps a position in some European or international issues; but in everything else it's not easy to reach agreements because Podemos has committed itself to a position that in my opinion is on a different playing field to where six or seven of the parties in Parliament find ourselves.

S. Martin: People also say, they write, that you and Pablo Iglesias get on very well at a personal level, that there is considerable feeling there, that you understand each other...

President of the Government: Or chemistry.

S. Martin: Does that help two parties who have so little, or even nothing, in common, to get on together?

President of the Government: At the end of the day, those of us who are in politics, business, journalism, are people, and personal relations are very important, because in the end, what do you and I have in common? The fact that we are people. You may dedicate yourself to one thing, I dedicate myself to something else, and I believe that what is personal always has to be preserved. I try to do so, and I try to have the best personal relations possible with everyone. It's true that there are many people with whom you may feel more comfortable and with others, less so; but that's not something you can decide. That's the way it is, and there is no way it can be otherwise.

In general, I get on quite well with all the political leaders. Yesterday, Albert Rivera called me to congratulate me for my election as party chairman. Well, I believe that is important.

S. Martin: Pedro Sánchez also sent a tweet to congratulate you, both you and Pablo Iglesias.

President of the Government: Yes, I know. I know that he sent a tweet, that's right.

S. Martin: Let's move on a little, in the last part of the interview. I'd like to deal with one of the issues on which as you know you have been criticised most and that the People's Party is criticised for, which is the cases related to corruption. A great deal has also been talked about this in Parliament.

On Friday, we learned of the first judgments in one of the separated parts of the Gürtel trial, with some very harsh sentences. Today the three hundred witnesses called to testify about the Gürtel case began to pass through the National Court, among them Ana Mato, who is charged with profiting from the illegal activity; last week we learned of a report from the Tax Authority about the 6.8 million allegedly defrauded by Rodrigo Rato. And this weekend as I said, we heard María Dolores de Cospedal, say two things that until then we had not heard: she apologised for not having reacted better or for not having known how to react in time. Do you think that the People's Party, the Government, can do more to put an end to corruption? Do you believe that all these cases may continue to harm your Government?

President of the Government: If we can do more? Of course we can do more. We've done a lot. Many of the cases you've referred to have taken place ten years ago or more. We've taken many decisions that affected people and now they are not in the People's Party. We have modified many laws that we have submitted to Parliament. I believe that as a party we are doing things better. The party management is much more professional now, and at the present time I feel, of course, very relaxed.

Having said that, I am prepared to consider any proposal that is made to make us more efficient in the fight against corruption and to ensure it does not happen again. It has caused us great harm. We have to try to ensure that this does not occur again in our history, and that the political debate is about ideas, ways of understanding things, proposals, and not about those issues that undoubtedly distress, and with reason, the immense majority of Spanish people.

S. Martin: One of the issues about which I hear complaints from all the politicians, of any party, is how slow the justice system is: some say that "justice is so slow that it causes us more harm, because after many years we are still in the media, and the issue is still talked about a lot"; others say "there is no interest in providing the justice system with sufficient resources to investigate and actually fight against corruption." Does your Government, does the Ministry of Justice, have any ideas in mind to reduce the timeframes in the system of justice, which if it is not swift, if it comes late, is not justice?

President of the Government: There is an old saying in law, which says: delayed justice is no justice. I studied Law, and I'm also the son of a judge, who does not work now of course because he is retired, he's elderly.

It's true that sometimes it's surprising, and is also very annoying. For example, these things that are being tried now, what you have referred to, began to be investigated in 2009, in January, that's eight years ago. And in some cases they occurred seventeen or eighteen years ago. So on this matter we have to take action together.

And I don't blame the judges. There are many things in play. Not only judges are involved in a judicial process: there are witnesses, lawyers, people who present reports, the letters rogatory can take a long time, reports from a variety of bodies, etc. But there's no doubt that something has to be done. We have made some changes, which in fact were criticised, in the Criminal Procedure Act that are now being implemented - I believe a sub-committee will be created soon - to analyse three or four issues related to justice in the Lower House. One of them, the most important, is to see what we can do to be swifter in resolving these issues.

S. Martin: We have little time and some very important matters that I still want to ask you about. One which also generates a great deal of interest among the viewers who are watching us now, is the electricity bill. What can be done with the electricity system so that at least we don't depend so much on whether it rains or whether there is a lot of wind?

President of the Government: The electricity bill has risen a great deal this year. Last year it fell a lot, and now it has increased a lot, basically for the following reasons: first, because the price of oil has risen more than 100%, comparing January 2016 with February 2017; second, the price of gas has risen by more than 100% and the price of coal also by 100%. And then we use a great deal of electricity that comes from water, the rain and wind, renewable wind power. And this year, the weather conditions helped less than last year, and so we have had to use oil and gas, which have risen by more than 100%.

The Government has frozen the fixed part of the bill and the other depends on the market; but I am absolutely convinced that this will be maintained this year and the price of the bill will rise on average by around 100 euros in 2017 with respect to last year. But, I repeat, 2016 was a year with an exceptional price and we are going back to 2015 prices this year.

S. Martin: Is the Government considering doing anything more to try, at least, to ensure that the price fluctuations are not so great, these oscillations from one week to another, sometimes even from one day to the next, rises of 30%, 40%, or 100%?

President of the Government: Yes. There are countries, and we are studying them, where, whatever happens to the price of energy, the aim is to maintain a stable price, so that when oil prices rise or fall, the rate is stable. Here, if the electricity prices fall, they fall a lot, as you say, and if they rise, they do so a lot.

S. Martin: Garoña. You have to take a Government decision on this... Are you going to reopen it or not?

President of the Government: At this point in time, we are at a phase when everyone who wants to give their opinion can do so. And in fact, the Regional Deputation of Álava have asked to express their opinion, I believe the Basque Government has as well, also Navarre... La Rioja has asked to express an opinion and some... Let's see whether the companies agree on opening it or not, because that is very important, and the Government still has a period of over six months within which to resolve the question. But thus far no decision has been taken on this issue.

S. Martin: I would like to ask you about a call that took place last week, and about which we've also talked a great deal, that is the call Donald Trump made in the first round of contacts with world leaders, last week. If I'm not mistaken, the phone call lasted between fifteen and twenty minutes. We were told officially that the tone of the call was cordial. What did you have time for in a quarter of an hour?

President of the Government: It was a cordial call, in which Mr Trump told me that he wanted, as always, to have good relations with the Government of Spain and also with all the Spanish people.

We talked about the economic situation in the United States. He said it was good and he hoped it would continue like that in the future. We talked about the economic situation in Spain, and also of cooperation on the matter of security and defence, and of European matters, Brexit, where he asked me about my position, and the future of Europe. And about the future of Europe I told him that here in Spain we are committed to Europe, to the unity of the European people, the maintenance of the common currency the euro and for greater integration, sixty years on from the Treaty of Rome which we celebrate in March.

It was a cordial interview. I told him that we wanted to have a good relationship, as is normal; but the fact is that there are issues on which our positions can be very different. I am in favour, of course, of free trade and I am in favour of compliance with the Climate Agreements, but that is normal in international relations.

S. Martin: Did you offer yourself? Did you offer Spain's mediation as a liaison with Latin America and with Europe? Had you agreed this offer in advance with your European Union partners?

President of the Government: I didn't offer myself as mediator for anyone, not even Latin America. It's true that we've seen that published and probably we didn't explain ourselves well. I said that I had good relations in Latin America and that we have a history that unites us, and we have shared affections and links of all kinds, and very good relations. Spain is the second placed country in the world in terms of investing in Latin America, only behind in fact the United States itself. And I also explained that we were in the European Union and that we had magnificent relations with the countries of North Africa.

That makes Spain a country that can undoubtedly help to resolve many of the problems in the international context, and I believe it is reasonable that I should state what Spain's position is and make clear the importance our country has.

S. Martin: One of the criticisms that has also been made of the Spanish position with respect to the Trump Administration is that it is a position that so far has been too weak, too soft. Do you believe that the Minister for Foreign Affairs, and you yourself, could be firmer with respect to the excesses, at least the verbal excesses, of Donald Trump?

President of the Government: The problem is that I am President of the Government of Spain and so of course if instead of being President of the Government of Spain, I was at home and was a lawyer, then probably I could say different things; but the President of the Government of Spain has certain duties. The first is to get on well with everyone, not to generate difficulties or problems, to defend the interests of his country, and mine is Spain, and the things that have to be defended are defended. But of course, I don't criticize the President of the United States, or the President of Russia, or the President of China, or the president of any other country, because there's no point, unless he engages in genocide or in obvious attacks against people, against human beings, etc. etc.

I have to maintain a reasonable position. There will be things that we agree with and things that we don't, as happens with France, or as happens in the case of France or Portugal with respect to us. That's life; but my duty is to defend the interests of Spain and that requires good relations with everyone.

S. Martin: We've only got barely a minute left, but I'd like to ask you of course about the European situation. We've talked about Donald Trump, there's Brexit and we have elections in France and Germany shortly. Do you believe that this is the moment of truth for the European Union, that it is the time when either the project moves forward, or it must go backwards?

President of the Government: I don't know whether it is the moment of truth; but I certainly say that it is important to resolve properly some things that you have pointed to. It is important for the elections to be won by parties that believe in the European project and are prepared to work for it; and it would be bad for parties to win, as has happened in the United Kingdom, which in the final analysis don't believe in the European project. I won't enter into who should win the elections in one place or another, but I think I can say the following: I am convinced that both in France and in Germany, key countries in Europe, things will go well.

Now in March, the month when we will all go to Rome, it will be sixty years since the signing of the Treaty of Rome, when the European Communities were created. I'd like to say this: In the sixty years from 1957 to now, Europe has been a space of peace, freedom, democracy and progress. In the sixty years before that, before the European Union began to be formed, there were two world wars in Europe. It is the biggest project and the best political process that has been carried out for centuries and that is why it has to be supported.

S. Martin: We have to leave it here, nearly three quarters of an hour of conversation with the President of the Government. Thank you for inviting us to breakfast.

President of the Government: Thank you very much. It's been a pleasure.