Interview with the President of the Government on the programme "Hoy por hoy" on Cadena SER radio

Madrid

Pepa Bueno: Good day.

President of the Government: Good day.

P. Bueno: Welcome to Cadena SER.

President of the Government: Thank you very much.

P. Bueno: Mr President of the Government, is what's happening in Catalonia an institutional coup?

President of the Government: I think that what is happening in Catalonia is something that is extremely serious, because a proposed resolution has been presented, and if it is executed, it would mean liquidating our constitutional order and our whole legal system. It is therefore something that is extremely serious and what I have to say on this matter to all the Spanish people is that the government knows what it has to do, that these objectives will in no way be achieved, and that there is no doubt that the unity of Spain will be preserved, together with national sovereignty and the lack of special privileges for some people. The law will be applied, as it is the expression of popular will and the government will not flinch in taking the decisions it must take.

P. Bueno: President of the Government Rajoy is with us this morning on SER. We'll be back in a few minutes.

P. Bueno: I understand, Mr President of the Government, that prudence at this time is very necessary, but what are you referring to when you say "I'll do everything I have to do, with all the instruments at my disposal, to prevent a unilateral declaration being made in Catalonia"? What are you referring to?

President of the Government: I am referring to the fact that Spanish laws, starting with the Constitution itself, and all the rest of our legal system, have sufficient instruments for the government to be able to guarantee Spanish unity, national sovereignty, in other words the right of all Spanish people to decide what their country is, and the equality of all the Spanish people.

There are therefore sufficient instruments available, and what I must tell you is that the government will use proportional measures according to how things develop to prevent the declaration from taking place and to prevent the achievement of the aims included in the document delivered yesterday at the Parliamentary Committee.

P. Bueno: To be more specific, will the government appeal the document before it is approved in Parliament, as Ciudadanos asked you, or will you wait for it to be approved?

President of the Government: We will always appeal provided that the government's legal services tell us that the right thing to do is appeal. As the situation is now, a document has been presented to the Parliamentary Committee and as of today our party in Catalonia will ask the Committee to reject it. If the bureau does not reject it, and if our legal services recommend that we file an appeal, we will do so. In other words, what we won't do, as some would like, is to act with anxiety, appeal anything that occurs to us... no, first things must be studied, and then decisions must be made. We must act with calm so that we don't make a mistake or overact.

What I have to say is that the government guarantees and says to all the people of Spain: you can have peace of mind because the aims of the independentists in Catalonia are not going to prosper, because they contravene Spanish law.

P. Bueno: But that is what we have been hearing for the last three years, Mr President of the Government, and the independence roadmap has been followed again and again until reaching the point at which we are now, when next week there will be a unilateral declaration of independence, because they say that they will not obey Spanish laws and they have a majority of seats.

President of the Government: It's not true that what the independentists have wanted has taken place, because the requests made to me were, first, a system such as the Agreement or Compact, the so-called Fiscal Compact, and I said no and told them to present it to the national Parliament. Then I was asked for authorisation to hold a referendum, I took it to Parliament and we told them no. So none of the aims of these groups has been met, which is not the same as saying they have been met.

P. Bueno: Their alternative roadmap has been followed.

President: Well, their alternative roadmap... They have continued to do things, but none of them has turned out well: neither the Fiscal Compact turned out well, nor the binding referendum that they wanted, which the pantomime we experienced at the time certainly does not have. What I say is that in the same way as that the fiscal compact was not successful, and in the same way as the referendum that was to end national sovereignty was not held, the contents of the document presented yesterday in Parliament are not going to prosper. I must tell people to be calm and that we shouldn't be hasty. I understand that everyone wants to say things, the political parties, let's see if this can be like this or otherwise... but the government knows very well what it has to do, as has been demonstrated with these two very important examples I have given you.

P. Bueno: Yes, but we also have the right to know what your forecast is if a directive of the Constitutional Court, a judgment, is disobeyed in Catalonia, as announced. That's what the document says.

President of the Government: It means applying the law.

P. Bueno: And what does applying the law mean?

President of the Government: Applying the law is what the Spanish Constitution says and applying the law means implementing the law reforming the Constitutional Court that we presented in Parliament not long ago, and that actually gave rise to criticism from some people. So it means applying the law. That's what we're going to do. We're not going to go into details of what happens if one thing or another occurs.

P. Bueno: I'm asking you about one thing and the other, Mr President of the Government. Continue, please.

President of the Government: We're going to apply the law and we're not going to enter into details. As I said, until now all their aspirations have got nowhere. And in fact, all this time there was criticism from people saying: "Why don't you negotiate, negotiate." What am I going to negotiate? The Fiscal Compact? A referendum or that statement that they have now presented to Parliament?

As I say, you should be calm, anxiety does not resolve problems, and as events occur, answers will have to be given, always with prudence and a sense of proportion, but also firmly and with determination. And that is what I guarantee I will do.

P. Bueno: Since they asked you to negotiate the Fiscal Compact, on questions not related to sovereignty and independence, the proportion of independentists has doubled with the political inaction of Central Government, Mr President of the Government. The political problem we have today is much more serious than then, when you did not reach any agreement. I don't mean that you should have conceded, but you should have taken advantage of the negotiations to open up a channel for dialogue, which would have prevented us from now being at the brink of an unconstitutional secession.

President of the Government: No negotiation was presented to me. I was presented with a contract of adhesion; in other words, "here either we have a Fiscal Compact or we move to a referendum." I said: there is no Fiscal Compact. Referendum? There has been no referendum either.

Then there is something that is important and that we should all take closely into account, because I can already see what will happen and I am already seeing what some are doing: let's see if we can blame one side or the other, everyone knows there's good fishing in troubled waters... But those responsible for what is happening here are not any of the political parties, nor any of the immense majority of Spanish citizens, nor any of the millions of Spanish people who defend the Constitution, the law, national sovereignty and the equality of Spanish people. Those aren't responsible. The real people responsible - and we shouldn't mistake our adversaries - are those who want to liquidate a Constitution such as the Spanish one in a democratic country in the 21st Century. Those are the people truly responsible and the law will be applied to them, and it will in no way allow them to get what they want.

So let's not be mistaken about who is responsible and who isn't responsible. The responsibility lies with those who are planning the dissolution of Spanish legislation. It is profoundly anti-democratic and it is something that is improper for a country such as Spain. It has nothing to do with what the European Union is: a space of civilisation, freedom, where the law and the rule of law are above any other consideration. Those are the adversaries and they are the ones we should criticise.

P. Bueno: Having said that, you are the President of the Government of Spain, and also of the Catalans, including those who want to leave us. Mr President of the Government, have you analysed the 23 points that Artur Mas handed you on 30 July 2014, only a year ago? The questions included there were not linked to the consultation on sovereignty, they were presented by the legal representative of the Catalan people? Did you review the list of 23 points?

President of the Government: Yes. And there was agreement on some, and some have already been met, and on others there was no agreement.

But let's not delude ourselves, eh! We won't now dredge up the past. What was presented to me - and the fact is that I was there - and in many hours of conversation is that I should create a system that went against the equality of all the Spanish people. And I even talked with the General Secretary of the Socialist Party, and said, what do you think about the idea of the Fiscal Compact? "Well, it's very bad," he said. And I said to Mr Mas: look, present it to Parliament, which is what has national sovereignty. Present it. And he said: "No, why don't you present it, as you are President of the Government?" And I said, I'm not going to present something that I don't believe in and that, what's more, Parliament is not going to approve.

And the same thing happened with the referendum. It's not a problem of 23, or of a highway, a launch pad, the train from the airport, and so on; no, the real problem is, either the Fiscal Compact, or the referendum. I couldn't accept these two things and there was no room for negotiation. And the person responsible isn't the one who defends the law and the Constitution, it's the one who aims to liquidate it.

P. Bueno: That's clear, President of the Government

President of the Government: I'm glad it's clear.

P. Bueno: We're not going to discuss who began the process of unconstitutional secession. I asked you, as President of the Government, about that list of 23 points, if the opportunities there have been, this one, the latest, the most recent, to gather all the democratic parties in Spain and put them in a type of negotiation, in technical committees, in the Lower House, in the Upper House... because the soufflé wasn't collapsing, Mr Rajoy. We all saw that the number of independentists was growing and you said: it will fall, it will fall, it will fall. It hasn't fallen, Mr President of the Government. We have two million votes of Spanish people who don't want to be so. Do you feel any responsibility in this reality?

President of the Government: The responsibility, probably, was with us all; but there is no doubt that the most important responsibility lies with those who want to do away with the law, which is what I want to make clear here. They are the ones who have the most important responsibility.

So there is responsibility on all sides. What I don't think makes sense is that I should now begin to talk about the decisions that the tripartite government made at the time, presided over by a socialist and linked to Esquerra Republicana de Catalunya and Iniciativa per Catalunya. What I don't think makes any sense is that I should begin to debate here about why the Socialist Party of Catalonia, which always used to win the elections in Catalonia, and with a large majority, then began to lose votes as it didn't defend the traditional positions of its voters.

In other words, does that make any sense today? It doesn't make any sense.

P. Bueno: No, because we could also talk about how the PP has declined.

President of the Government: No, but we have always had the votes we've had, Pepa. Let's not fool ourselves. Let's be constructive and look to the future.

P. Bueno: We have to know what's happened to know what we have to put right. What can the President of the Government offer, what does candidate Rajoy offer, to the two million Spanish people who no longer want to be so in Catalonia?

President of the Government: Well, look, first of all, I have history. Spain is the oldest nation in Europe, five centuries of living together, and problems such as this one in Catalonia is not presenting itself for the first time.

P. Bueno: But we're talking about the future here, Mr President of the Government, not about the past.

President of the Government: Yes, but it's important, because history includes emotional links, for example; there are trading links; links between people; there are hundreds of thousands of people who went to Catalonia from other parts of Spain and helped build Catalonia: many Galicians - I'm Galician, as you know - many people from Andalusia, many from Extremadura - you're from Extremadura - many people. Many people who married Catalans and people who were not Catalans. Catalans who live in Madrid or in other parts of Spain. We are joined by commercial relations, by our history and by the last 40 years, the Spanish Constitution. Spain is one of the five countries in the world where income per capita has grown most in the last 40 years.

We are united by a European project. Why does a Catalan now have to stop being Spanish and European? It makes no sense, if you can be Catalan, Spanish and European. We are joined by a future, which is European integration, and we are joined by our path in the world. The world is in the process of integration. What is the European Union? Becoming involved in processes of separation or division belongs to stages that have been left far behind. That is what really is a thing of the past.

We are joined by many things, and so that is what we have to explain to people. In addition, it's good to recall one thing, which is that in Catalonia there are very many more Catalans than independentists and very many more people who are not independentists than independentists. So, it's not... We have to make an effort, that's true, to convince everyone; but it's not a case of abandoning the positions of those who are not independentists at the cost of defending the independentists.

P. Bueno: Mr President of the Government, you've talked about the past and you've told me about the European project, the global, world project. Have you given up on trying to convince the two million Catalans who want to stop being Spanish? Is there no specific Spanish programme for them?

President of the Government: Not at all. I haven't given up... Of course I have a Spanish project for them. The project for the next four years is to create two million jobs in Spain, and it can be done. Thanks to that welfare and wealth will increase. The project is to continue with the process of modernising the country, with more R&D and with the Digital Agenda. The project is to continue with the process of European integration. We have completed Banking Union; we now have to move towards Fiscal Union and Political Union. The project is to make Spain one of the greatest powers in the world. Now we are in 12th or 13th place in terms of income per capita and we can be among the top 10 if there is political stability, certainty and we maintain an economic policy that allows us to grow. Of course there is a project.

P. Bueno: And a constitutional reform, such as that proposed, for example, by Ciudadanos, which could be your potential partner in government? Not only in that, eh! Not only in that, but also in that.

President of the Government: I believe that the constitutional reform... The Spanish Constitution was one of the major achievements in our history; I believe, because it meant overcoming 40 years of an authoritarian regime. I believe that it brought democracy, it brought freedom and it brought human rights. It allowed us to reach Europe and allowed us to make progress in the last 40 years as never before in our history.

Obviously, it can be reformed. Of course it can be reformed. In fact, we have already reformed it twice; but of course what I believe it can't be reformed for is to give the independentists what they want. In other words, if people want to tinker with Spanish unity, national sovereignty, the rights of Spanish people or the equality of Spanish people, I will oppose them.

P. Bueno: Don't you believe that the Basque Accord breaks with the equality of Spanish people? They have their own treasury and the rest don't.

President of the Government: Yes, and the Navarre Accord. Yes. That was a decision that the immense majority of the Spanish people and all the political parties took in 1978. It was included in a transitional provision; it was something that was present in history. Even under Franco, Álava and Navarre had it; it was extended to Guipúzcoa and to Biscay, and at this point in time I am not in favour of opening up this subject and of maintaining things as they are.

P. Bueno: And in Spain in 2015, Mr President of the Government, why can't we reach an agreement, as we reached in 1978, and renew the rules that govern us? And I'm not specifying how, but at least to sit down and talk.

President of the Government: You don't say in what way, but what is important is to know in what way.

P. Bueno: That's up to you, not me. I'm just a journalist. I'm asking you.

President of the Government: Not me, because I haven't proposed the reform. It's a question for those who have proposed the reform. But of course if the aim... There are things that can be done: the succession to the Throne, of course that can be done; naming autonomous regions, as well; saying that we are now in Europe, as well. But the subject, the important subject we are talking about, is this and as for all those ideas of federal Spain, which is already so in practice... It is very easy to say: "I'm going to reform the Constitution." You have the headline, you have the slogan. But the problem is, what is the content? Or as you say, in what sense? Let the person who wants to do it say so. At this point in time, I haven't proposed it.

P. Bueno: The rest of the parties are saying so. Haven't you seen anything negotiable in what the PSOE or Ciudadanos propose? They are talking.

President of the Government: What are they proposing, Pepa? What are they proposing?

P. Bueno: They're talking. Haven't you read it?

President of the Government: Of course I've read it! But if you know what they are proposing, please tell me.

P. Bueno: Yes, yes. A federal reform of Spain. But I'm asking the President of the Government, don't ask me. The questions are asked by journalists.

President of the Government: But you're asking me. I've already told you...

P. Bueno: Haven't you found anything attractive or negotiable in what the rest of the parties are proposing?

President of the Government: I've already told you that there are things that can be done: naming the autonomous regions...

P. Bueno: On the territorial question?

President of the Government: On the territorial question some people are proposing that Central Government should have more powers than it has; others propose that Central Government should have fewer powers than it has; and what I say at this point in time is that I don't consider we are in a position to reach a major consensus. Because, of course, the Constitution can't be reformed by a simple majority, can it? It requires the immense majority of the House, not an absolute majority; not even a majority of the major parties, the People's Party and the Socialist Party. In fact, in the Constitution of 1978 there was Izquierda Unida, or whatever it's called now; there was also Convergència i Unió; and there were practically all the political parties.

What I say is that I'm not cutting myself of from that; but what I also want to say is that of course the proposals are not going to be resolved, as the one made yesterday on the independence of Catalonia, by reforming the Constitution, unless someone wants this reform to accept the proposals of these people, in which case he should say so. I at any rate say a very clear no.

P. Bueno: To conclude, Mr President of the Government, to move onto another subject, do you, as President of the Government at the present time, and as candidate for government for the People's Party (Partido Popular), believe that only the enforcement of the law can resolve the rift we are seeing in Catalonia? Only the enforcement of the law, and that there is nothing to be done politically.

President of the Government: No, that's what you say, I don't. I say that it is fundamental to enforce the law. In other words, in what country in the civilised world where we live, are there people who talk about whether the enforcement of the law resolves matters or not? The law has to be enforced. If we are saying that the law is not enforced, all the citizens who hear this at this time...

And we can talk. What we can't talk about is what I said to Mr Mas in numerous conversations I have had with him over the years; it is about what the Spanish people possess. The point is that not even the national Parliament can do away with sovereignty. That corresponds to the people and whether or not to have national unity can only be voted on by the Spanish people, not part of the Spanish people, not Parliament, and much less the President of the Government.

So I am not prepared to talk about the equality of the Spanish people, of the fundamental rights of the Spanish people, of the right to decide of the Spanish people on what their country is and on the unity of Spain. On everything else, yes.

P. Bueno: Do you regret, Mr President of the Government, not having tried before to use more diplomatic skills, more ingenuity, more intelligence, which the situation in Catalonia needs, as you said on Televisión Española [Spanish Television]? Do you regret having travelled around Spain collecting signatures against the Statute of 2006?

President of the Government: I was radically against the Statute in 2006 while others were in favour. The Statute was on the verge of not prospering. A great effort was made for it to prosper, but as the Constitutional Court ruled, the Statute contravened what the Constitution said, and in the end... look, if we have a rule, then we should observe it, because if not, we enter a different arena that I don't want for Spain. I believe in the rule of law.

P. Bueno: Is the biggest failure of your government leaving to the next government a Spain that is broken in territorial terms, with a declaration of secession?

President of the Government: I would hope that the next government is one that I lead. But Spain is not broken in terms of its territory. At this point in time, Spain is a country that is recovering economically, that continues to make progress in the process of European integration; a country of which we can be proud in many aspects; that has, however, to improve because there are still a great many people in a situation of difficulty, and at this point in time there is a problem, but it is clear who created it. That is important because at times you have the impression that some people would take advantage of anything to see if they can trip someone up.

P. Bueno: No, Mr President of the Government. When we have a representative of the independentists here, we ask them, and when we have the President of the Government of Spain here, we want to know if the Constitutional Court disqualifies, withdraws powers, from those that break the rule of law in Spain from now on in Catalonia, and they disobey, what the Government of Spain will do.

President of the Government: Obviously I respect everything the Constitutional Court does, I respect it, I observe it, and it has to be complied with.

P. Bueno: And if it is not observed, will you apply Article 155?

President of the Government: Well, I wouldn't like things to go that far. Frankly, I wouldn't like things to go that far. I believe that answers... When you govern, above all, but in any facet of life, you have to handle things with prudence and with a sense of proportionality... So I'll try to ensure that things don't go that far.

P. Bueno: When you say "while I am President of the Government, I guarantee the unity of Spain," do you mean that Pedro Sánchez, Albert Rivera or Pablo Iglesias don't guarantee it?

President of the Government: Not at all. I imagine that they do as well. I of course can only speak for myself, not for them, as is natural.

P. Bueno: But this is an affair of State, not of a party or yourself. You are aware of it, I mean. Are you going to call them? Are you going to meet them?

President of the Government: But I am the President of the Government. Yes, I am going to meet them. Yesterday I spoke with Pedro Sánchez and I spoke with Mr Rivera as well. I don't have anything against talking with everyone and I'll do so in the coming days.

P. Bueno: With Podemos as well?

President of the Government: Yes, as well, although of course the proposal of Podemos is in favour of the right to self-determination and the abolition of national sovereignty. If they change opinion, that's all well and good, but given that they support these proposals you will understand that they hardly generate great enthusiasm from anyone.

P. Bueno: You mean you'll call them, is that what you're saying? Are you going to invite them to Moncloa Palace?

President of the Government: Yes. I already talked to some of them yesterday and I am going to continue to talk with them.

P. Bueno: But are you saying there will be a meeting or not, Mr President of the Government?

President of the Government: I'll announce it after it's taken place.

P. Bueno: Have you talked with the King?

President of the Government: Yes, of course.

P. Bueno: Since yesterday?

President of the Government: Yes, of course.

P. Bueno: Is His Majesty concerned?

President of the Government: I don't think it's a good idea to publicise my conversations with the King.

P. Bueno: Talking of the economy, Mr President of the Government, and of the inheritance you or those replacing you will receive, whatever the Spanish people decide...

President of the Government: That's right. Whatever the Spanish people decide. You are quite right there.

P. Bueno: Why do you insist on saying that Spain is the country that is growing most in the European Union? That's not the case. We're not. I have the figures here.

President of the Government: Are you going to bring up Latvia...?

P. Bueno: No. I'm saying we are the fifth in the European Union, the third in the Eurozone and the sixth in the G-20. Why should you exaggerate with a country that is growing like ours after a recession, and which is growing fast?

President of the Government: No. Spain in 2012 had negative economic growth, as it did in 2011 and in 2013. In 2012, we were at the brink of a bailout and of bankruptcy. The things I had to go through! And today, who would have thought it, I say, Spain is now growing more than the European average, more than the average in the EU, more than Germany, Italy and France. So that's neither exaggerating, nor not exaggerating. It's the truth.

P. Bueno: You say it's the country that is growing the most in the European Union? That was the point.

President of the Government: Of the major countries in the European Union, including the United Kingdom. Obviously, Latvia is growing faster than Spain and probably there will be a couple of other small countries too. I'm talking about the big countries. With all due respect, I'm not going to compare myself to Latvia; I want to aspire, and I believe that's what we have to do, to become increasingly close to the major countries.

P. Bueno: You say that this emergence from the crisis - you said so this week - has not left anyone by the wayside. Let me give you some figures to see if we're talking about the same thing: there are 12 million Spanish people at risk of poverty, according to the European Anti-Poverty Network; the long-term rate of unemployment is 60%, Mr President of the Government: at present there are 2,940,000 unemployed people who have been unemployed for over a year, and of those, 2,150,000 have used up their unemployment benefit more than two years ago and receive no benefit. Can we really say that we haven't left them by the wayside?

President of the Government: If you want, we can have a discussion on the figures.

P. Bueno: No; as you were using figures, I've presented you with these.

President of the Government: I agree, I believe that in life we should move forward, don't you? So you have to be fair and proportional when it comes to issuing a judgment or summing up.

We lived through - and I'm telling you as one who lived through it and many Spanish people also did so - the verge of a bailout and I had to bear a great deal of pressure from a great many people; on the brink of bankruptcy and in recession, without economic growth. When I came to government, 1,400 jobs were being lost every day. Well, from that situation, three years later, we have become the fastest growing major country in Europe, right? The European country creating most jobs and where confidence has increased. Now there's no more talk of the risk premium. We were ruined.

So let's move forward. There are many things still left, and you can present me with many figures and I can present you with many more. But please, let's raise the tone a little bit and make value judgments. Is there a great deal left? Yes, of course, a great number of people are unemployed, people in difficulties.

P. Bueno: Mr President of the Government, do you think it is an improvement if I say that we have 46% of young people without a job, that those over the age of 50 are, according to the EPA [Spanish Labour Force Survey] taking longest to find a job, because they come from sectors in decline and also have to retire? Is that an improvement?

President of the Government: No. That is true, but it's also true that youth employment is growing in 2015 at a rate of 11%, and that eight out of every ten people unemployed who found a job last year were long-term unemployed, that 73% of Spanish people have a permanent employment contract.

In other words, we have a certain tendency to only create news out of bad things. Well, there are some positive things in this country, aren't there? And I believe that the change in the economic situation that has taken place... Look, the other day I read the financial statement of Cadena Ser for the first half of the year. Well, advertising, local advertising - I'm not talking about the other kind - is rising at more than 10%. That's fantastic for everyone: for you, for Cadena SER, for the shareholders, for those who work here, for me, who am here today, and it also demonstrates... That local advertising, which is local trade, is growing at more than 10%, which is enormously positive.

Now, is all that enough? Not at all. That is why I say: in the next four years Spain has to create two million jobs and reach 20 million people in work, and that can be done if we are able to maintain the same economic policy.

The figures such as those which you have mentioned...

P. Bueno: Are they true?

President of the Government: Of course they are true.

P. Bueno: OK. And if they are true, Mr President of the Government, you are fully entitled to campaign, but I have to ask you...

President of the Government: I am not campaigning. I am answering and saying what I think is the truth.

P. Bueno: You are fully entitled, of course, to say what you think is appropriate, Mr President of the Government. Of course you are.

President of the Government: Thank you very much.

P. Bueno: I would like to ask you, for example, about the rate of temporary employment, which was one of the slogans repeated at the start of this government's term in office. It has risen from 21% to 26%.

President of the Government: That's not true.

P. Bueno: They're four-monthly figures from 2013, according to the Labour Force Survey. Perhaps I've got the wrong figures.

President of the Government: Now you're coming out with 2013.

P. Bueno: From when we were worst to now, because at that time temporary jobs were being lost. What I would like to ask you is that if the jobs we are creating are quality jobs or temporary jobs, which is what people are telling us. People call us and say: "I need three jobs to make ends meet, because I can't with just one."

President of the Government: 73% of jobs are permanent and then there are others that are temporary jobs. There are many sectors of economic activity where it is very difficult not to have temporary jobs because there are, as you know, some activities that are seasonal, above all in the area of hotels and catering, in the world of tourism... that's the case in Spain and in any other country in the world. Last year we had a significant increase in the number of permanent contracts but of course, the great challenge for Spain and the great goal continues to be to improve the unemployment figures. That's clear, isn't it? I'm not going to dispute that. But of course, that's why we've made reforms, that's why we have fought hard and we are creating many more jobs, while before they were being shed. Enough? No, absolutely insufficient.

P. Bueno: Do you get very annoyed when we talk about the negative economic figures? You have said very often this week: "You don't highlight the positive." Mr President of the Government, journalists are in touch with many people, who tell us that the emergence from this crisis has left them abandoned by the wayside, that they have lost rights and that they are not recovering them, that they have very low wages and that they can barely make ends meet. That is happening, it happens to us every day, and you tell us: "Don't be pessimistic or negative." Should we ignore the Spanish people who are having a bad time?

President of the Government: I don't get annoyed when you tell me that. Sometimes, I have the feeling that some people get annoyed when I talk about the positive aspects of the economy in recent years. That is the feeling I normally have.

Now, what you have said is true. There are a great many things left to do and I know that there are people who are living in a situation of extreme difficulty; but it is also only fair to recognise that things are getting better. Advertising on the radio in Portugal has grown by 1%, and here by 10%. Look, some things are working well in Spain. The point is the future, as I have said, that we should be capable of persevering and for there to be two million more people working in Spain. That is the goal.

P. Bueno: If everything is going well, Mr President of the Government...

President of the Government: I haven't said that everything is going well.

P. Bueno: No, that's what I'm saying.

President of the Government: Ah, if you say so, I don't agree. Not everything is going well.

P. Bueno: I was going to ask you, if everything goes well in the future, Mr President of the Government...

President of the Government: I wish.

P. Bueno: ... will severance pay in Spain rise again to over 20 days per year worked? Do you believe it possible to undertake legal reforms to increase this amount, which came to be 45 days, in the next government?

President of the Government: The labour reform has been one of the most important decisions adopted by the government I head up. I can tell you in all honesty. I have met with important business people in the automobile sector who, as you know, have continued to invest in Spain, invest a lot. I have been to Palencia, I've been to Valencia, I've been to Zaragoza, I've been to Martorell not long ago and I also have pending a visit to Vigo and to some of the other major plants. The automobile sector has met the challenge and the main reason why they have come here has been the labour reform.

If you read the reports - of course, the trade unions are against it, but what can we do - I believe that the labour reform has been fundamental, among other things because by making labour relations more flexible it meant there was an alternative to layoffs for businesses that were doing badly; there was an alternative. I believe that to make a U-turn here, as some would want, with the labour reform, is a crazy idea, from the point of view of the interests of people, and above all from the point of view of the interests of the people who are hoping to get a job, a colossal madness. I'm telling you it as I think.

P. Bueno: To be specific, I asked you if a future labour reform would again have 45 days per year worked, if everything went well. Or has that been lost once and for all?

President of the Government: The basic aim, the priority, is for everyone to have a job and not to lose it, and so let's not enter that discussion. That is the aim of the labour reform and that is where we have to persevere: to ensure that there are no layoffs and that we are not discussing what severance pay will be.

P. Bueno: In other words, the answer is no, Mr President of the Government. It's a no. In your opinion it should not return, even if things go well.

President of the Government: In my opinion, the aim must be to create jobs. If things go well, there are no layoffs. That is the point, and that is precisely what it is all about.

P. Bueno: So even if things go well, we will never return to that.

President of the Government: No, I said that when things go well, there are no layoffs, and so we won't have to deal with this issue.

P. Bueno: But as people are also laid off, hypothetically...

President of the Government: Yes, but far fewer, Pepa, far fewer.

P. Bueno: Mr President of the Government, something else you said this week: "We are champions in terms of the deficit." ¿Is it true? The fact is, we have not met the deficit target in any of the years of this government. There was a final correction in 2014. So I said, in 2014, yes. Well, Eurostat corrected me, and even that wasn't so, either.

President of the Government: Pepa, when I came to government - and this is quite something - the public deficit was 9% and the target was 6%: there was a deviation of three points. Well look, now that this government has almost completed its term, I don't know if technically it has completed it, Spain will leave the deficit at less than half. The whole of Europe recognises the efforts we have made. The International Monetary Fund has said that we have been the most successful OECD country in the reduction of the primary structural deficit; the most successful country in the OECD, no less. We've had to reduce the deficit in a recession, in other words when public revenues had fallen.

This government can be criticised for many things, but having come from where we have come to say that we have not made a great effort on reducing the deficit - and we have had to ask for a great deal of effort from the Spanish people - is a little unfair, if you allow me to say so.

P. Bueno: I haven't talked about effort; I'm saying that the President of the Government says we have met the target. We haven't met it. If there has been this effort and we are growing, why not say precisely what has occurred? The deficit target has not been met in the four years of this government.

President of the Government: I believe that substantially it has been met. Last year we had a problem with a judgement on the "health cent" of the European Court, which added nearly two tenths of a percentage point of deficit and left us with that. But the European Commission certainly had no concerns over this, did they?

P. Bueno: You claim that you can't spend more than you earn. We have heard you say it in many different ways and with many different qualifications.

President of the Government: In general, yes.

P. Bueno: And you have criticised the government of Rodríguez Zapatero, whom you succeeded, for doing the opposite. In these four years, Mr President of the Government, you have done just that, spend more than your income, because we have increased our debt by 300 billion euros, and I'm trying to be precise here, our public debt.

President of the Government: Yes, among other things because we have had to sustain the finances of many of the regional governments, because we have had to pay suppliers...

P. Bueno: Most of them, or many of them, are run by your party; some. Valencia, for example.

President of the Government: Yes, yes. But of course, if someone, back then, had been more concerned about controlling the spending of the regional governments, whether of my party or any other, we would probably now be in a different situation because now, we would undoubtedly not be concerning ourselves with this.

We had to pay suppliers. Social centres that look after people in a situation of difficulty were not getting paid. Health suppliers were not getting paid. How many small companies had to close because they were not getting paid? Look, we had to deal with the debt maturities of some regional governments because they could not go to the markets. Sometimes we just don't realise it. When we came to government, the Regional Government of Catalonia was paying 7.75% per year for money, and now the creditor is the Spanish Government and it pays zero interest every year.

Being in government is not easy. Making speeches and criticising the government is much easier, but being in government is not easy.

P. Bueno: I asked you why there were these imprecisions that aren't necessary if, in your opinion, you can present a good economic balance sheet.

President of the Government: Imprecisions... Well, two tenths of a decimal point of deficit; OK, two tenths of a decimal point of deficit. I've already explained some cases and could explain others.

P. Bueno: You didn't ask for a country bailout, you've said that; here we applauded you for it, but you had to ask for a bailout for the banks. The major hole in the banking system was in Bankia. Would you say today that you made a mistake in promoting Rodrigo Rato as chairman of Caja Madrid?

President of the Government: Yes, we had to ask for it, because, do you know what the alternative was, which some people were also calling for? It was to close all these financial institutions and if you closed all these financial institutions, I ask: who would pay the deposits of the people who had their money there, and what would happen with the mutual funds and what would happen with the workers? At times there are things that really surprise one.

Well, yes, we did it and now we have achieved something that is key, and about which you asked me in the last interview we had, which is credit. I told you: we have to put right the issue of credit because, if there is no credit, it is very difficult for there to be investment in economic activity. That has been dealt with.

P. Bueno: In that interview, 16 months ago now, Mr President of the Government - and we invite you to come more often, whenever you like - we didn't know the things we now know about Mr Rato. Did you made a mistake in promoting Rodrigo Rato as chairman of Caja Madrid?

President of the Government: I don't know what precisely it is that has happened, or everything...There is a case now being prepared, I believe, in the National High Court, on the initial share offering of Bankia and on the merger of Bankia with Bancaja. I don't know. Of course, I suppose that as Chairman Rodrigo Rato would have acted in these matters - there is no other way of doing so - in accordance with the government, with the Bank of Spain and with the National Securities Market Commission. But I don't know about that, and really it will be the courts that will have to establish where the responsibilities of each person lie.

P. Bueno: How did an alleged wrongdoer, alleged I repeat, deceive so many people for so long? He was a colleague of yours on the Council of Ministers, he was Vice-President of the Government, he was chairman of Bankia...

President of the Government: He was a colleague on the Council of Ministers, yes, for many years, and a good friend. Look, let's wait for the courts to decide. I don't know. I do know what I have read about the tax problems, and I do know what I have just told you about Bankia; but let's wait for the courts to decide and let's not set ourselves up as judges; that's not my function, anyway.

P. Bueno: You repeat that corruption has done a great deal of harm to the People's Party, but it has done more harm to the Spanish people, don't you think so? Because it has left many coffers very empty.

President of the Government: Corruption has done harm to the country in general, and to us also, as a party. It does harm to everyone.

P. Bueno: You are putting your parliamentary seat at risk and the rest of us are putting the Welfare State at risk, because in many places we have seen how money from public contracts is channelled into the pockets of private individuals.

Mr President of the Government, I am going to give you a list of the official accounting of the People's Party, which was sent to the Court of Auditors, in which there is no trace of the money given to Pío García Escudero, the Speaker of the Upper House, for work on his flat, which is something he himself has admitted. Also not appearing in these accounts is the bonus pay to Calixto Ayesa for a year, which he has admitted; the money spent on renting the flat for Jaume Matas, here in Madrid, which he has admitted; the bonus pay admitted by the party manager Cristóbal Páez, recognised by him; and the aid paid to the widow of a local councillor killed by ETA, and recognised by her. All this money did not appear in the PP's official accounts and was therefore not declared to the Tax Agency, and was therefore black money - I'm not going into its origin here. It allows those who are instructing this case to deduce that there was a parallel accounting book, the "B" book, in the PP. Didn't you ever suspect this?

President of the Government: No, I really didn't. The people who dedicated themselves to political activity were not the people who had the responsibility in these matters. I already told you at the time that this appeared deplorable to me. The people who at the time had this responsibility, specifically Mr Bárcenas, are no longer in the People's Party and we of course now accept what the courts of justice say.

But look, in a political party, as I suppose is the case in so many undertakings in life, everyone has their function, and of course neither the party's general secretary nor the spokesperson of the Parliamentary Group, nor the spokesperson of the Upper House, nor the president of the party, are involved in the issues to which you refer. Neither in these nor in many others.

P. Bueno: Are you tempted to close the headquarters at Génova 13 after another judge asked for information about the work allegedly paid for with dirty money?

President of the Government: We already answered this when Judge Castro sent us this paper on the work done at the People's Party.

P. Bueno: I asked you if you were tempted to close them.

President of the Government: I haven't thought about it. To put it simply, if we have some responsibility... You'll understand that in no executive committee, and in no party body, no-one knows how projects are granted, nor what is being done, nor how they are paid. It is true that there is a person who, as the courts have said in the instruction phase, did not act properly, and therefore let the weight of the law fall on those on whom it must fall.

P. Bueno: You appointed Bárcenas. Do you regret appointing him treasurer?

President of the Government: Yes. If I had known what I know now, I would not have appointed him, obviously. But at that time I didn't know.

P. Bueno: Mr President of the Government, why has the PP not signed the manifesto that calls for a consensus chairman for Radiotelevisión Española? Why is a consensus bad?

President of the Government: Consensus is not bad at all.

P. Bueno: It's just that you haven't signed a document that asks for it, for a stronger majority.

President of the Government: Who has said that consensus is bad? I'm in favour of consensus.

P. Bueno: Then why haven't you signed the document?

President of the Government: There is a law in force that was approved at the time, on how the chairman of Radiotelevisión Española is appointed. That law was agreed between the Socialist Party and the People's Party, and I see no reason to change it because there are others who think differently from what the immense majority of the Spanish people thought at the time, as represented in Parliament, which is where national sovereignty lies.

Of course, there are times when people appear saying things and others say the opposite. That's what Parliament is for, because parliaments are there for a reason.

P. Bueno: Do you believe that the refugee crisis could bring down Ms Merkel? Her popularity is plummeting.

President of the Government: I believe that this is the most important issue we have as Europeans for the next 25 years at least, and if we don't take it seriously and carry out major actions on the African continent and some countries in Asia, we are going to have a major problem. I believe it is the most important problem.

P. Bueno: I'm going to give you some breaking news: Austria has just announced that it will erect a fence on part of its border with Slovenia. Just like that, to stop them.

President of the Government: I know that, with Slovenia. That was this morning.

P. Bueno: But I asked you if the situation is dragging down Merkel with it.

President of the Government: I don't think so. Ms Merkel is maintaining a position that I also hold. Ms Merkel is in favour of the right to asylum. I believe we have to isolate in Europe everyone who is persecuted for political reasons or who lives in a country that is at war, because that is what European civilisation means - democracy and freedom. Illegal immigration for economic reasons is something else. There I believe we have to undertake a major operation in Africa, steered by the European Union, to try to ensure that the fight against poverty in these countries is effective and that human rights are respected; because as long as people cannot eat properly and lead a decent life in their country, they will come here, because that's what you and I would also do.

P. Bueno: Your government's official development aid has fallen by 60% during this term in office, Mr President of the Government.

President of the Government: The situation in our country was so bad that all the budget items were cut except for pensions, which have risen over these years, and except for unemployment benefit. We had to prioritise. 70 billion euros of revenue were lost, we had to prioritise and we said: we won't touch either pensions or unemployment benefits. From now on, we can make a start and many items have been increased in the 2016 budget. They did so in 2015 and also in 2016, because now our revenues are up, because the economy is growing more.

P. Bueno: Your number two in Madrid will be Soraya Sáenz de Santamaría, right?

President of the Government: Who?

P. Bueno: Your number two on the electoral list.

President of the Government: The truth is that yes, we have to draw up the lists. We haven't started yet.

P. Bueno: And will Soraya Sáenz de Santamaría be number two?

President of the Government: Well I haven't thought about it but of course I am delighted with the work she has done over these last few years. I imagine that she will be. I can't think of any reason for her not being so.

P. Bueno: Ah. I thought it was clear.

President of the Government: What?

P. Bueno: That she would be number two.

President of the Government: Yes, I believe that she will be number two; but I haven't talked with anyone about this yet.

P. Bueno: And the General Secretary will be number two for Toledo?

President of the Government: Well, I don't know, because I haven't talked with her either. I don't know if she wants to stay in Castile-La Mancha or stand as a member of the national Parliament.

P. Bueno: Do you feel, Mr President of the Government, that people close to you talk to you sincerely? I'll tell you why I ask: because in private, many PP leaders tell us journalists that you as a candidate are a handicap.

President of the Government: Well, either they aren't telling the truth when they speak to me, or they aren't telling the truth when they speak to you. I hope that it's when they talk to you that they aren't telling the truth.

P. Bueno: They don't tell you?

President of the Government: No.

P. Bueno: If your party has to enter a coalition to govern and a condition set by the other party is that you could not be President of the Government, would you step down? Would you be generous, Mr Rajoy?

President of the Government: I don't believe that the other parties wouldn't respect the popular will and the candidate that people vote for. I don't believe it. I believe that their sense of democracy would prevent them from doing what you say.

P. Bueno: But we don't vote for candidates for President of the Government in Spain. This is a parliamentary democracy. We choose lists, and what's more they are closed.

President of the Government: Technically, that's true, it's what you say: this is a parliamentary and not a presidential system. But having said that, you know that since 1977, when the first elections took place in our country, the parties have presented a candidate for President of the Government, even though what you have just said is true.

P. Bueno: Does no one really question your leadership directly with you? I mean by way of a report about what the situation is, an analysis, Mr President of the Government.

President of the Government: I understand perfectly. Although some may not like it, that's the way it is. They don't question it.

P. Bueno: And don't you believe that you are a handicap for your party?

President of the Government: Not at all. I sincerely believe that it is up to me to lead, with my government and with the support of my Parliamentary Group, in what has been the most difficult period of government for many years in our country. Although, as I told you before, there are still many things that I have to do and there are still many people in a situation of difficulty, I believe we have acted with determination and courage, although I am well aware that this has meant that many people have become annoyed with me and with the decisions taken by my government, and they have the perfect right to do so.

P. Bueno: Have you any news about the three soldiers who have disappeared in the Atlantic?

President of the Government: No. I've talked with the Minister for Defence, who for the last four days has been... The last time was yesterday, and unfortunately we still don't know anything, even though all efforts possible are being made. He is in Gando, in Gran Canaria.

P. Bueno: Was precious time for searching lost because of the mistaken information from Morocco?

President of the Government: This will have to be looked at when the time comes, but I think not, and I must say that the Government of Morocco is helping us with material resources to try to find out what has happened.

P. Bueno: Mr President of the Government, are you going to the Climate Change Summit?

President of the Government: Yes. It is, I believe, on the 30th November in Paris; it's a Monday.

P. Bueno: What does your cousin say?

President of the Government: When you make a mistake, the best thing to do is to rectify and I have rectified very often in life, because I often make mistakes, although it is true that for everyone's good the fewer times I make mistakes the better. I was wrong then and I have corrected it.

P. Bueno: Do you think it's a serious problem?

President of the Government: Yes. It seems a serious problem and I am very happy because the other day, on 18 October, at the United Nations, we presented a document proving that we have complied with our Kyoto commitments. Believe me it was a day on which I felt very happy.

P. Bueno: I'd like to be precise, Mr President of the Government. I believe there isn't a single euro in the budget for next year, and there hasn't been in the last three years, to recover the victims of Franco, basically, and some of those of the Civil War, from unmarked graves; and yet you have given the Francisco Franco Foundation 150,000 euros. Can you explain that?

President of the Government: I didn't know about what you just told me. I didn't know.

P. Bueno: Because you can't explain it, can you?

President of the Government: It's just that I didn't know it. I don't know, I didn't know that.

P. Bueno: Do you eat red meat?

President of the Government: Yes. Really, I don't want to criticise anyone and still less about what I don't know anything about, but of course, this thing about the World Health Organization, no less, issuing it to the world, because they issued it to the world, saying that if you eat meat or if you eat charcuterie or whatever, you can die, seems very over the top to me. I miss not having more specific and clearer information from those who can give it, because this is no joke.

P. Bueno: So do you think what the World Health Organization says is exaggerated?

President of the Government: No, because I don't know one word of it; but I believe that over the history of humanity we have all eaten meat. The countries that eat most meat in the world are Brazil, Argentina and Uruguay, and then the United States, Israel, no less, and Australia. But in Spain we eat a lot of meat, and in Spain we have the second highest life expectancy in the world after Japan. In Japan, they eat little meat, they eat more fish and rice; but we are in second place. However, I can't give an opinion about what I don't know. Look, what I would like is for someone with sufficient knowledge to tell us if this is true or not. Because, what is the World Health Organization saying? That we shouldn't eat meat, or is it telling governments to ban the sale of meat? Of course, you have to...

P. Bueno: It's saying that you should eat with prudence, Mr President of the Government.

President of the Government: Good, and what's that? We need more information.

P. Bueno: Have you talked with the industry? I imagine you are concerned about the meat industry.

President of the Government: I am concerned about the meat industry, but I am much more concerned about people's health. That concerns me much more.

P. Bueno: Ah. That's why I said it, because today we said here that there has been a spectacular increase in colorectal cancer in Spain in the last 30 years, just when we abandoned our Mediterranean diet.

President of the Government: Yes, we should preserve the Mediterranean diet of course, and eat fruits, vegetables... Of course, then they tell you about pesticides and such. I believe that food security is one of the most important challenges for the future, one of the most important challenges. Now there are many fish farms, there is a lot of processed food, etc. etc. and I believe that this is where governments should make a great effort.

P. Bueno: Four years ago, when you were about to entering La Moncloa, I interviewed you on Televisión Española and asked for the names of three people who hadn't let you down. You had experienced the situation in 2008, when people had criticised you fiercely within the party; and you gave me the names of three women.

President of the Government: And what names did I give you?

P. Bueno: Carmen Martínez Castro, who is here, the State Secretary for Communication; Soraya Sáenz de Santamaría and Dolores de Cospedal.

President of the Government: The three are still working very hard in a very difficult situation and I could give you the same answer I gave in 2011.

P. Bueno: Tell me someone who has let you down.

President of the Government: Is it worth it, Pepa?

P. Bueno: Yes, because to a large extent the life of the Spanish people is involved.

President of the Government: Someone from my party or outside my party?

P. Bueno: From your party, from your immediate environment. I'll ask the others, those outside, Mr President of the Government.

President of the Government: The idea is to mess with those outside the party a little, because they already mess with my party enough.

Really, I have been in the party for many years. I am closely in touch with the people. And of course there are people with whom I have closer relations, people with whom I get on with better or worse; but there is no-one who I can accuse of doing something with malicious intent, or with the idea of irritating, which is what is really bad in life: when people do harm for its own sake. And I have never seen that in my party.

P. Bueno: Mr Rajoy, thank you for being in SER. Goodbye.

President of the Government: Thank you very much.