Interview with President of the Government on Antena 3

Madrid

Gloria Lomana.- President of the Government, good evening. We are live here. Thank you for allowing this interview.

President of the Government.- Good evening, it is a pleasure to be here.

G. Lomana.- As on previous occasions, I intend to start by throwing out five very short questions to which I only need a "yes" or "no" answer. Do you accept that?

President of the Government.- I accept that, if you will allow me to add the odd nuance.

G. Lomana.- At any event, that was not the first question, that doesn't count. The first question is, "After Sunday's results, do you believe that there is a lesser risk of a declaration of independence in Catalonia or not?

President of the Government.- Yes, I believe that there was never a great risk; but it is clear that now the answer is "yes", after those parties that advocated independence only received the support of 36% of the citizens of Catalonia called to the polling stations.

G. Lomana.- This afternoon, however - this has just happened, we saw this just a couple of hours ago - the Lower House of Parliament has approved, with votes in favour from your party, the reform of the Constitutional Court, which will allow senior office-holders and public servants who ignore its rulings to be suspended from their duties. Will you back, for example, the suspension of the President of the Regional Government of Catalonia, if he takes unmistakable steps towards this independence? And I would ask you to answer "yes" or "no".

President of the Government.- I would, yes; but then I would back any ruling by any court whether I agree with it or not. Moreover, I stand by this and do so with full respect. Here we have a Rule of Law, and hence, the obligation on the government and on citizens in general is to stand by the decisions handed down by the courts. So, my answer is yes.

G. Lomana.- Following the elections, we have also heard you make an offer to talk. To reform the Constitution? Yes or no?

President of the Government.- Yes, let's see what we can do in the future, working together to try to resolve this situation. In other words, we cannot continue with these instabilities for much longer. I have never refused to reform the Constitution, provided that this does not affect the unity of Spain and the equality of all Spaniards, whoever they may be, wherever they may live and wherever they may have been born.

G. Lomana.- You are saying "yes" but under these conditions.

President of the Government.- Yes, we can talk about it.

G. Lomana.- We have also heard you say before that the worst period has been the economic crisis. Has the issue of Catalonia overtaken that? Has the situation in Catalonia been worse? Yes or no?

President of the Government.- They are both difficult issues. In reality, it is very hard to answer "yes" or "no", but, if I had to respond, I would say that the economic crisis has been worse. This affects people, many people were left without work, there were problems with purchasing power and there were many people who couldn't find a job. The economic crisis in Spain has truly been tough; fortunately we are now on the path to recovery.

G. Lomana.- And my fifth question. Will elections be held on 13 December?

President of the Government.- On 13 December? No.

G. Lomana.- Let me rephrase that. Will elections be held on 20 December?

President of the Government.- Yes.

G. Lomana.- Very well. Let us look at this in more detail, but at any event we now have…

President of the Government.- The reason is that we would have to assemble Parliament, if this took place on 13 December, practically in the middle of the Christmas break. This will give us a little more room to manoeuvre, we will thus have until 14 January, and hence, we could approve the Budget, hold elections and then have time, after the Christmas break, to assemble Parliament.

G. Lomana.- We will speak about all that but, at any event, we already have several headlines. The President of the Government, who is empowered to this end, has just announced to us that the general elections - he has just confirmed this - will be held on 20 December.

Let's deal with things one-by-one, President of the Government. Logically, we will start with Catalonia. Almost half of the citizens, of the people of Catalonia, who turned out to vote on Sunday did so calling for something that they knew was illegal to call for and yet, they did. They are Catalans that no longer feel Spanish. So do you take this in any way as a political disaster on your part?

President of the Government.- No, I take it seriously, which is how I should take it; but I would like to say that more than 50% said the opposite and there were 22% of people who did not turn out to vote, who didn't vote in favour of independence either. I believe that, aside from that, what we must do is get down to work. It is true that over the course of many years, they have tirelessly told the same old story to the people of Catalonia, and used expressions such as "Spain steals from us" and "Spain does not want us". Well we should explain that this is not true, that Spain does not steal from them and that Spain does want them; we want to all live together, we have a great history behind us and we have a great future ahead of us. Hence, that is going to be an imposition on us all, and we will undertake this, to explain that nowadays that is not the way the world is heading, that integration processes are good and that the project for Spain is a project with a great past but, above all, a project with a tremendous future. Today we are one of the most advanced countries in the whole world.

G. Lomana.- At any event, President of the Government, do you admit you have made any mistakes in this whole process? For example, I would say to you about your policy regarding time, or what some have called your stagnation, or the fact that you have resorted to a policy of fear than of feelings, to tackle pro-independence propaganda that has been constantly calling on these feelings.

President of the Government.- Everybody has made mistakes. I believe that the first major mistake was having fostered, and the Socialist Party heads up this list, a reform of the Statute of Autonomy which the Constitutional Court then declared was unconstitutional. Another major mistake was the constitution of the Catalan tripartite; a very big mistake made by Convergència was abandoning a central line in politics in Catalonia to ally itself with radical parties - we can see now what is happening with CUP, another major mistake was the Socialist Party supporting CUP, for example, in the City Council of Badalona and taking the city council away from the People's Party.

Hence, everyone has made mistakes, but let me tell you something: the biggest mistake is that made by some people who have abandoned their moderate, central position in Catalan politics to challenge the Constitution, and who have stood in the elections with only one point in their election manifesto, which was to break the law.

Hence, sometimes, more than punishing ourselves, we should take the high ground and look at what is more important. The greatest responsibility falls to those who have stood in the elections proposing something that is absolutely illegal and, worst still, bad for the interests of all the people of Catalonia, bad for their own economic interests and which goes against the grain of the integration process taking place around the world.

G. Lomana.- But behind convening these elections, which is what I was saying, there are many people; we spoke before about this percentage. In regard to your position as President of the Government, what thoughts do you have to help contribute to overcoming this social divide before it becomes a total separation?

President of the Government.- I told you before. I believe that we should speak more and I believe we should explain ourselves. We need to look at what unites us; we are united by a great history, there are affective ties, personal ties, trade ties; there are many people from many places in Spain who have gone to Catalonia, who helped make Catalonia what it is today, one of the great economic drivers of Spain; and there are many citizens of Catalonia who have relations with the rest of the people of Spain. Catalonia exports more, for example, to Aragon than to all the major countries of Europe, and the same can be said about Murcia.

We must explain this and, above all, we must explain that it is not true what some people say that "Spain steals from us" or that "Spain does not want us". That is false; this message has been mercilessly beaten into people from many rostrums and I believe that we must strive to return to a situation of normality.

You spoke to me about stagnation, didn't you? Just look, that was what I was told when I didn't accept a bailout for Spain. Spain was on the brink of bankruptcy, everyone was asking me to request a bailout which would have meant we ended up like Greece. Well the same is happening now. I could have said that I accept the proposal from Mr Mas to hold a referendum that goes against national sovereignty and the equality of all the people of Spain to decide on their own country. A President of the Government cannot accept that, but it does not mean one is being stagnant; that means upholding the law and, in my opinion, doing what needs to be done.

I believe that this is a question that needs thought, with a lot of explaining, that means working together and, of course, fighting those who are proposing something that is ruinous for the interests of the citizens of Catalonia and indeed for the rest of the people of Spain.

G. Lomana.- Earlier you said to me that after Sunday's elections, you believe that the risk of a declaration of independence is less. But don't you fear that the process of accusing Artur Mas and his summons to appear before a court, on 15 October, which, is, of course, a very significant date, the 75th anniversary of the execution of Lluis Companys, will rekindle this issue?

President of the Government.- The decision to summons Artur Mas to make a declaration has been adopted by the High Court of Justice of Catalonia in the exercise of its powers. In other words, what is profoundly unfair and deceitful to the people is to try to convey that this is a decision made by the government or from certain forums, whose identity we are not exactly sure of. This is a decision by the courts and, in a democracy, we either get used to respecting the decisions of the courts or else we go nowhere. But the courts have also summoned members of the Socialist Party, members of the People's Party and people from other political forces to declare over the years, and no-one thought to say that this was a manoeuvre either on the part of the government or of any other political group.

Hence, we respect the courts. I am not going to judge the decision of the courts; that would be ridiculous. So, in a democracy the government governs, the legislative controls the government and passes laws and the courts look at whether what people do, including governors, who must follow the law adapts to prevailing legislation.

G. Lomana.- At any event, let's recall what Regional President Mas said on Sunday night.

Mr. Mas.- "We have won and that gives us great strength and great legitimacy to push on with this project. They know that".

G. Lomana.- That is what the Regional President said on Sunday and then on Monday you said, and I will repeat this verbatim, that "dialogue can be maintained with everyone". Have you changed your mind and are now thinking of calling Regional President Mas as well?

President of the Government.- I have always spoken with Regional President Mas whenever he has wanted to speak with me. That is, Mr Mas cannot say that when he has called me by phone I have not answered and he cannot say that when he wanted to see me I didn't answer the phone. I have always done this and I do this with anyone with a responsible position because that is my obligation as President of the Government. So, if Regional President Mas calls me - logically we need to wait and see who will be elected President of the Regional Government of Catalonia - I, for one, will speak with him. Have no doubts about that.

At any event, I cannot agree with these statements that I have just heard. Convergència Democrática and Esquerra Republicana had 71 Members of the Regional Parliament prior to the day these elections were held, whereas now they have 62 and Convergència Democrática, with 30 MPs, has had the worst results ever as a party. It has never had fewer than 30 MPs since the first elections held back in 1980. I believe that this should also be a source of reflection for those who took some decisions that have led us to this sad situation.

G. Lomana.- Before you said to me through headlines, President of the Government, that you would logically back the decision of the Constitutional Court to suspend the President of the Regional Government of Catalonia if he took unmistakable steps, as we said, towards independence and did not uphold the rulings of the court. But my question is, "And what if this happens with the whole of the Regional Government or of half of the Regional Parliament? Who will replace them? The situation would…

President of the Government.- I hope that we do not reach a situation of these characteristics; that we see a return to common sense, that people talk, but sensibly and with clear ideas, and that what is proposed is what is said. Aside from that, I hope that we never see a situation of these characteristics, which lead us to nowhere.

At any event, I must say that I always accept the rulings of the courts, whether I like them or not, because, if not, I would not be a democrat.

G. Lomana.- Hence, you see the solution to the conflict which may be created through the courts and not through politics. Do you believe that your government or the State will have to resort at any time to suspending the Statute of Autonomy or in taking on some of its powers? I am thinking, for example, about citizen security. Or do you believe that this process can only be tackled through judicial rulings?

President of the Government.- I don't want to tackle it through judicial rulings; I want to tackle it politically, which does not mean that the law does not need to be upheld.

You spoke to me before about feelings, yes, and we can talk about feelings. The problem is that other people may have different feelings. In Catalonia, there are those that have feelings of independence, they want independence; there are others that have different feelings and, in reality, the law is there to organise our co-existence so that there is not a battle of feelings that leads to the law of the survival of the fittest. If a feeling is used as an alibi to do away with the law, we would be subject to the law of the jungle.

Hence, the law must be followed by everyone - if there is anyone that does not agree with me, then so be it - and then of course, we must talk, and I have always been willing to talk, but I, as President of the Government, cannot be asked to ignore the very foundations of the Spanish Constitution, because it is not my place to do so and because I can't be asked to do that. That is why I say that the equality of all Spaniards before the law will be upheld, together with national unity and national sovereignty. National sovereignty is what all Spaniards decide on and not just a few of them.

G. Lomana.- A lot is being said about Catalonia in the streets, President of the Government. You must have some idea about this, because we have seen you a lot lately in bars and restaurants.

Question by citizen.- How will you tackle this issue of Catalonia? Is it true who you are really defending? Do you defend the Spanish people or do you defend other interests?

Question by citizen.- Doesn't it annoy you to pass into posterity as a political Don Tancerdo?

Question by citizen.- Why have you waited until the last 90 days of government to do the things that you should have done in your first 320 days?

Question by citizen.- I would like to ask you about Catalonia. I wanted to know if it will continue to be a part of Spain in two years time.

President of the Government.- Those are various questions, and all of them are interesting.

G. Lomana.- Some of them have already been answered, but this question about "in two years time" is very tough.

President of the Government.- And I would like to speak about Don Tancredo, because this is a recurring theme and I would like to make some comments on the issue.

We are a government that has made reforms like nobody before in Spain. Just look at the Budgetary Stability Act in Spain; the total overhaul of the financial system; the Education Act; the labour reform; the Electricity Sector Act… On the one hand, we are criticised for undertaking too many reforms, which was what needed to be done to help the Spanish economy recover, and then, on the other hand, you talk about Don Tancredo. Yes, I was a Don Tancredo when I refused to ask for a bailout for Spain and thanks to that we have been able to recover our economy. And I could, as I said earlier, not be a Don Tancredo and accept what Mr Mas has asked from me, which is a referendum. I could have done that but then, perhaps I would not be a Don Tancredo; but rather I would be irresponsible through and through and that is obviously something that cannot happen, in any way whatsoever, to the President of the Government of a country like Spain.

G. Lomana.- We will talk economics later, but first I wanted to ask you a little more about Catalonia because, looking at Sunday's elections, President of the Government, the majority of young people have voted precisely for independence. Does something need to be done to change the pro-sovereignty discourse in the schools in Catalonia?

President of the Government.- I am not entirely sure that the majority of young people - that has not been analysed; I for one do not have those figures - have voted in favour of independence. I believe that all citizens should be treated as one. That is, young people are people with their own criteria, with their own opinions, they know what they do and they know why they do it. As I explained earlier, I believe that everyone must make an effort, quite simply, to contradict some things that have been said and which are wholly untrue.

I could explain, but I believe it is not necessary, the tremendous effort that has also been made at solidarity by the people of Spain as a whole due to the situation that the Regional Government of Catalonia was in when we came to power. The Regional Government of Catalonia could not resort to the markets, it could not receive financing, no-one would lend it money, it could not deal with its public deficit, and hence its public services, it could not pay its suppliers… Well, behind that was a supportive Spain, as there was with two or three other regions that were in a similar situation. Today, the Regional Government of Catalonia receives finance at zero percent, because those lending it money are the Government of Spain, and we do so because we believe we should.

Catalonia has been very supportive of the rest of Spain and, at difficult times, the rest of Spain has also been very supportive of Catalonia. That makes us bigger and better, by helping one another. At a certain time, things are going better for one and at other times they are going better for another.

So, I believe that we must educate a lot, we must explain a lot and we must show some things that are quite simply false. For example, Catalonia would leave the European Union, who would pay the pensions, the debates on nationality… I have heard things that are truly noteworthy from some political leaders, "Listen, I want to leave but you can continue paying for our pensions and I will keep my Spanish nationality". Please, a little more thoroughness when proposing such important issues as this, which is certainly neither a joke, nor a minor issue.

G. Lomana.- You need to educate, that is what you said…

President of the Government.- Absolutely.

G. Lomana.- …but, probably, you also need to make some kind of gesture so that the State is better viewed from Catalonia. For example, I am thinking that Catalan could be recognised as a Spanish language that can be used in any of its institutions, not only in Spain, but in Brussels for example, or for the Upper House to move to Catalonia. We have heard some of these proposals. Are you thinking about any of these gestures, beyond, of course, merely educating, as you were just mentioning?

President of the Government.- If we could resolve this problem by moving the Upper House to Catalonia, this would truly amaze me. In all sincerity, that does not seem like a serious proposal to me. "I am going to move the Upper House to Catalonia". Great, "By doing this we will resolve the problem". I have indeed heard a claim of this nature by the General Secretary of the Socialist Party, which in all honesty seems like an afterthought. In my opinion, that is not what our system is all about. I believe, in all sincerity that we need to explain things, we need to educate people because it is not a question of "I will now give you this in exchange for you doing what I want you to do". Things should not be handled that way.

G. Lomana.- You have been asked about the reform of the Constitution in the papers and you have said that you are prepared to do this but subject to certain conditions. One of these is maintaining the equality of the Spanish people. Do you mean that you will not accept any change that recognises any singular nature to Catalonia?

President of the Government.- The singular nature of Catalonia is already absolutely recognised. Catalonia has its own language, Catalan, and a language that is habitually used; even in schools it is practically the only language used. Catalonia has its own regional law, which is recognised in the Statute of Autonomy and in the Spanish Constitution itself, which is applied on the issue of inheritance law and in relation to contracts and obligations. Catalonia has all its differentiating features already recognised at law; it has the Mossos de Esquadra [Police Force of Catalonia]… In other words, it is not a question of any singular nature being recognised in the Constitution because that already exists.

Now, am I prepared to speak about the reform of the Constitution? Of course I am prepared to talk, but it is important that those who talk about reforming the Constitution say what they want because we sometimes have a certain tendency to resolve problems through headlines and slogans. "I am going to reform the Constitution…" Well, "do you mind explaining to me what you want to reform?" I can say that I am prepared to listen. We have already reformed it twice. I am obviously not prepared to do away with a key principle such as the equality of the Spanish people, or national sovereignty or the unity of Spain. Don't count on me, in all frankness, on that issue.

G. Lomana.- We are going to listen to what the Leader of the Opposition, Pedro Sánchez, has to say, because he does intend to recognise these singular features. He does not specify this here, but that is what can be read between the lines…

President of the Government.- Not here nor anywhere else; he has never specified this. Let me tell you that now.

G. Lomana.- I am going to play for you what can be implied from the programme "Espejo Público" [Public Mirror] on the Tuesday when he was here; and yesterday in the press, all my colleagues stated that the Socialist Party intends to recognise the singular features of Catalonia. I say this in relation to this dialogue that we are going to talk about in a minute.

Mr. Sánchez.- "I would say to Mr Rajoy that legality yes, but also negotiations and reform".

G. Lomana.- Negotiations, dialogue… Everyone talks about dialogue but I don't know when this is going to start. Would you like to answer that?

President of the Government.- Yes, if you will allow me. Legality yes; I agree, fortunately. Negotiations as well. The issue is that the only negotiations I have seen by Mr Sánchez have been with Podemos and with CUP, which is the extreme-left pro-independence party, in order to take the city councils away from the People's Party that they have won in the elections, for which it received the support of the people. Those are the only negotiations. He talks a lot, but people have to be judged by their actions. And by reforms as well, but he has headed up the Socialist Party for a year and a bit now and he has been absolutely incapable of telling us what aspects of the Constitution he wants to reform.

Hence, I believe that I am entitled to ask him to be somewhat more serious. I would be delighted to meet with him and to talk with him but, of course, I would have to ask him what he wants to do and what he wants to reform.

G. Lomana.- When will this dialogue start? When will you call him? Because one supposes that you must take the initiative, as President of the Government; not only with Mr Sánchez, but also with Mr Rivera, I imagine. Have you called them yet?

President of the Government.- No. I have met with Mr Rivera and I have met with Mr Sánchez on several occasions. More with Mr Sánchez, who is the Leader of the Opposition, and while Mr Rivera is not a Member of Parliament I have seen him on other occasions.

I believe that we agree on the most important issues, don't you? We agree on the unity of the nation, on national sovereignty, on the equality of the Spanish people, on protecting fundamental rights… I believe that we agree on all these issues. But in Catalonia it is very difficult to offer an alternative government to these political forces that proposed things that are absolutely different to the other parties, but I believe that it would be good for us all to know that on the main essential issues, and this is one of them, we are all in agreement.

G. Lomana.- And do you continue to rule out meeting with Pablo Iglesias?

President of the Government.- I have never ruled out meeting with Mr Pablo Iglesias or with anyone else. In fact, recently I have had the opportunity to be in Cadiz, where we inaugurated a wonderful bridge to this city, which is truly an impressive feat of engineering - this shows the capacity of Spanish workers and companies - and I was there with the previous mayor, who won the elections, Teófila Martínez; and I was there with the new mayor, who represents Podemos who, although he did not win, took the city council with the support of the PSOE. And great. The other day I inaugurated the high-speed railway to Palencia and Leon, and I was there with the councillors from Podemos, above all in Palencia. They outlined to me - some of them - their claims, and that's great.

I speak with everyone, but one thing is speaking with everyone and another is doing what everyone wants you to do. Those are different things.

G. Lomana.- In other words, can you confirm to me that you will call Pedro Sánchez, Albert Rivera and Pablo Iglesias?

President of the Government.- I didn't say that I was going to call them. I said that, if they call me, I will meet with them, as I have done on other occasions. I have called them on some occasions and they have called me on other occasions; but it is not a question of whether I call, I confirm or I don't confirm. That is something normal, for political leaders to talk. I have been in politics for some time now and I am very used to talking because you don't normally lose anything by doing so. Sometimes you don't achieve great things but it is good to listen to others.

G. Lomana.- President of the Government, it is inevitable in an interview with you to talk about former President of the Government Aznar. I don't know whether this is a coincidence or not, but the question is that on this occasion barely 24 hours had passed for him to rebuke you. Do you agree with him that, after five warnings, the People's Party is in a seriously compromised situation?

President of the Government.- I neither agree nor disagree with him, nor will I comment anything on the issue. Fortunately, Spain is a free country in which everyone can what say whatever they deem fit and opportune. Mr Aznar says what he deems fit and opportune and I do what I believe should be done as the President of the Government.

G. Lomana.- By the way, you speak through press statements, or at least that is the impression I have; that you don't see each other - I am not asking about public events - to comment on things with a certain frequency.

President of the Government.- Me, through a press statement to address…? Not to former President of the Government Aznar, nor to anyone else, ever. I speak to people face-to-face, not through press statements.

G. Lomana.- But you haven't spoken to him for a long time, have you?

President of the Government.- I don't remember, but I have seen him. I have seen him on some occasions. We had dinner with the King and with Felipe González and Rodríguez Zapatero. We were at dinner with King Juan Carlos. And I was at FAES later on, attending a conference where I outlined my theories.

G. Lomana.- Public events, as I said.

President of the Government.- I speak with many people, with some at public events and with others in private. Of course, if I speak with someone in private, that is private and hence it is not said in public.

G. Lomana.- Let's move on to the economy, but I have a question that ties in the economy with Catalonia or Catalonia with the economy because, in the event that this process goes ahead, do you fear the risk of capital controls being imposed, as the Governor of the Bank of Spain insinuated, or does that seem far-fetched to you?

President of the Government.- I greatly respect what the Governor of the Bank of Spain says and, as you know, Greece ended up being "penned in" not Spain. We should remember that.

Something positive came out of these latest elections to the Regional Parliament of Catalonia, which is that they spoke about the consequences of certain decisions; they spoke about leaving the Euro and what this could mean for industry in Catalonia and for its citizens; they spoke about pensions, and who would pay them; and they also spoke about the imposition of capital controls. It wasn't me who said this but the Governor of the Bank of Spain, who is knowledgeable on this issue. And they spoke about trade relations and about the domiciles of financial institutions.

In other words, there was a debate… I had never seen it this way, but there was a debate where they said, "listen, the consequences of this are these and the consequences of not taking this decision are those". That is why I say that this is incredibly prejudicial… It is ridiculous, and it is incredibly prejudicial to the interests of the people of Catalonia and to the people of Spain.

We are a country… The other day, when the new high-speed line was inaugurated, I said that we are the second leading country in the world, behind only China, in terms of high-speed travel. We have a pension system which almost no other country has, a healthcare system that is first class, we have an education system, social services, we are the second leading country in the world in terms of the number of inbound tourists… Listen, and why is this? Are these obligations? No, it is because this is a great country and because it has good infrastructures, good services and people out there are aware of this, aren't they?

We have a certain tendency to chastise ourselves mercilessly and to say how bad everything is going for us, to state all the problems we have and all the defects that exist, but this is a great country and, moreover, it is one of the countries to have made most progress over the last 40 years. And, as Spaniards, we should also feel proud of this. I, of course, as a Spaniard, and I am not talking now as President of the Government, I feel enormously proud.

G. Lomana.- Yesterday, an interpretation was made that economic growth is slowing down precisely because of political instability and because we have many political problems. Do you see things that way?

President of the Government.- First of all, I do not agree that economic growth is slowing down. With the figures announced yesterday by the Bank of Spain for the third quarter of this year, compared with the third quarter of last year, we can see growth of 3.4%; in other words, it is the country to have grown the fastest in the whole of the European Union. If you had said that to me back in 2012, just imagine, I would have to confess that I wouldn't have believed you in any way whatsoever. At present, after what we have gone through, we are the country to have grown the most and where most jobs are being created. Listen, that is a very positive fact.

G. Lomana.- By the way, Minister Báñez has said that the unemployment figure, which will be announced tomorrow, will be very good.

President of the Government.- Quite frankly, I am not aware of it yet. But before coming here…

G. Lomana.- Hasn't the minister called to tell you, knowing, as she did, that you had this interview?

President of the Government.- No, because I never… It's not because I wasn't tempted to tell you. There are certain rules and these rules should be respected.

Just look, this afternoon I was reviewing, preparing a little for this interview, an interview that I had here with you back in January 2014. And then you asked me a question, "listen, you have just said that this term of office will end with fewer unemployed than when you came to power", and you said to me that, "this means that 633,000 jobs need to be created in Spain, by Spanish society. "Are you in a position to say that you are going to create 633,000 jobs? And I said to you, "I am not going to quote a figure, but I believe that there will be a good number of jobs created". Well, since then, since the day we held that interview, there have not been 633,000 jobs created, but more than one million and I can assure you that that has given me greater satisfaction than anything else in the last four years, which have not been exactly very kind to me.

G. Lomana.- A lot is being said in the streets about the economy.

Question by citizen.- I would like you to tell me how you would spend a month as a father with two children but without any wage being brought home to the family

Question by citizen.- Do you think you are capable of truly stopping corruption? As poor people we are amazed at where so much money comes from. We are absolutely fed up with this.

Question by citizen.- Owners of small bars and restaurants are worried when we see that household consumption is going to rise and to achieve this jobs must be created. Can you commit to the fact that by 2020 the unemployment rate will at least be under 20%?

Question by citizen.- It is easy to talk about the economy. All you have to do is manipulate the figures; if, for example you say that you eat 11 eggs and I eat one then when you announce the figures you say that each Spaniard eats six eggs, but that figure is not real.

President of the Government.- That's a lot of questions.

G. Lomana.- And some have already been answered, but I would like to say that the macro-economics must filter down to the man in the street in some way, President of the Government.

President of the Government.- Yes, indeed. Before the economy told us that things were going very badly but now… I believe that this is now happening, Gloria. We are now saying: a year ago we were here and there are now one million more people working in Spain than back in January 2014. That is a positive fact. We have been able to lower taxes: we have lowered Personal Income Tax twice this year, and Corporate Income Tax as well. There are now handouts for large families and for those who have people with disabilities in their care, whether they are children or the elderly. We are also going to help women, who will receive a larger pension when they have two children, which will rise if they have three or four.

In other words, things are now being felt. Many more cars are being sold now and the housing market is also starting to see some movement. The construction industry is starting to recover. There is still a lot to do, of course; but you have to remember we have gone through the worst economic crisis in decades. And we are now growing like no other country in Europe and consumption is greatly improving. Retail trade is improving a great deal and wholesale trade as well. We all want to see things improving and we will continue working to that end.

I was asked whether unemployment would fall below 20%. Let me tell you something: in the next four year (2016, 2017, 2018 and 2019), if we maintain our economic policies, we will be able to create another 2 million jobs. That is a rate of 500,000 jobs per year and this can be done because last year, in 2014, we created 440,000 and this year we will create another 600,000; that's more than 1 million in total. That is what I am going to propose to the Spanish people: maintain the reform policy to create these jobs and hence, consumption will continue to rise.

G. Lomana.- What is the government going to do? Will it prevent the new commissions that some banks want to impose to use ATMs?

President of the Government.- Yes. Tomorrow we are going to approve a Royal Decree Law. At present, whoever wants to use an ATM must pay a commission to the bank that issued the cash card and, furthermore, pay the bank that owns the ATM visited, hence two commissions. That will come to an end now. The only commission will be paid by one bank to another and then the bank will reach an agreement with its customer. But, of course, the payment of two commissions to take money out by card from a bank will be done away with tomorrow; or rather, the day after tomorrow because tomorrow it will be approved and on Saturday morning the Royal Decree Law will be published in the Official State Gazette.

G. Lomana.- That is an important announcement. We are here live and our time is running out, but it is inevitable that we should talk about the greatest refugee crisis seen in Europe. We are going to listen to what a Syrian boy has said, something we all remember.

Words from a young refugee.- Syria needs aid now. Stop the war and we won't go to Europe. Stop the war in Syria.

G. Lomana.- Stop the war in Syria, President of the Government. Yesterday we saw that Russia has also got involved in the war, but from a different position to that of the allies of the United States. In the end, what is the situation? Are we sure that what the international coalition headed up by the United States is seeking to do, which is to depose President al-Assad, is the solution after what we have seen in Iraq or through the 'Arab springs'?

President of the Government.- Allow me to make a preliminary comment because it is interesting that this boy, in a matter of seconds, has been very discerning by saying what is happening, and what is the truth.

The spectacle being offered by the rest of the international community on the issue of Syria is not a truly edifying spectacle. I hope that the talks taking place now on an intense basis between the Russian Foreign Affairs Minister, Lavrov, and Kerry, and also by the European foreign affairs ministers, will prove useful. The enemy is DAESH, Jihadi terrorism, the so-called Islamic State. That is the enemy, but there are also other people who undoubtedly need to be removed, and it is fundamental to hit them hard and attack these people. I believe that Bashar al-Assad should be deposed, but for the time being we must count on Bashar al-Assad because we cannot be enemies with everyone.

G. Lomana.- Let us talk about the general elections. You have left us with a major newsflash: they will be held on the 20th. But, from what we have seen in Catalonia, it would seem that the threat to the PSOE is less now from Podemos and greater for the People's Party from Ciudadanos. Do you share this analysis?

President of the Government.- I concern myself with… Believe me that I concern myself with what I need to concern myself with, which is my party and the government I head up. Then, of course, you have others, each one with their own approaches, their own ideas and other things. They have every right to do that.

At this time I head up the People's Party which, let's not forget, has been the most voted for party in the latest municipal elections held in Spain earlier this year and the most voted for party in the regional elections, in 10 regions, held on the same day.

We have gone through a tough time. We have suffered our fair share of wear and tear. We have had to tackle some complicated things. We found this country… Spain was bankrupt and in economic recession. We were the weak man of Europe. Listen, this has not been easy, we have had to pay our price and we have suffered. Now, I will do my utmost to convince the people of Spain, not as to what we have done, but rather that we need to tread carefully regarding what may happen to us in the future in the event that we do not maintain the same policies. It is easy to talk and make promises, above all when you don't have a track record; but, believe me, it is not easy to govern.

G. Lomana.- At any event, Ciudadanos feels in a strong position and is laying down conditions, because it won't make pacts with parties that have corrupt candidates on their party lists and now Albert Rivera has just said that you do not represent the new era that Spain needs. And I ask you, President of the Government: if the People's Party does not win by an absolute majority, whether the panorama is not at all clear.

President of the Government.- Look, we will have to wait and see. I am not going to get into controversies nor judge as to what Spain needs, or doesn't need. What I do believe is that Spain needs to have a serious economic policy, although that may sometimes be unpopular, and Spain needs political stability, certainty and security. I believe that there is no place for experiments when you are governing.

G. Lomana.- Our time is running out, but we are a global "trending topic" at this time. This interview is taking place, as we said, live. We still have many questions left but I would like to ask just one. You say that these four years have been tough. Have you suffered any moment of weakness, when you have thought "this is unbearable, it's not worth my while? Any moment of personal weakness?

President of the Government.- These four years have not been tough; they have been very tough indeed. They have been very tough, but I can tell you something: the satisfaction I feel now, for example, in seeing that I can now lower taxes, when I had to raise them before, in seeing that I can return the extra payment to public servants when I had to remove it in the past, in seeing that many people who lost their job are starting to find another one or in seeing that Spain is leading the way and setting an example in Europe, this satisfaction cannot be valued in economic terms nor in material terms. This is an extraordinary satisfaction and I am very pleased and very proud of all the results that are starting to be seen.

G. Lomana.- Very good, President of the Government. Thank you very much for having taken on this first interview after the elections in Catalonia. I wish you the very best of luck.