Interview with President of the Government on "Herrera en la Onda" Onda Cero

Moncloa Palace, Madrid

Carlos Herrera: The President of the Government, as you know - there may be someone among you who doesn't, but most of you do know - is Mariano Rajoy Brey, who has kindly received us here at the headquarters of the Presidency.

Mr President of the Government, good morning.

President of the Government: Good morning, Carlos.

Carlos Herrera: Glad to welcome you.

President of the Government: Likewise.

Carlos Herrera: Do you have anything to do with the improvement in this coffee I'm having?

President of the Government: Frankly, I've got nothing to do with that; but the people at Moncloa are very efficient and I'm delighted that you really like the coffee, because there's no harm in starting the morning with a good coffee.

Carlos Herrera: Precisely.

Three years ago we were at this very same desk. You had just started your term as President of the Government, and gave us a scoop. I remember that you announced the immediate future of Bankia, which cost the resignation of Mr Rato within a matter of hours of your comments. You wouldn't have another exclusive of that importance today?

President of the Government: If I have, I'll tell it to you during the interview; but well, an exclusive like that of Bankia ... The important thing about Bankia is that today it is a healthy institution, that people's deposits are now guaranteed, that for the first time in a long time it has paid out a dividend, and that it is a financial institution that already granted a lot of loans last year. In other words, we have moved from bankruptcy to a better situation and I think that is most important point at the end of the day.

Carlos Herrera: There are many areas we are going to deal with this morning. If it's all right with you, the first, the most immediate, are the elections in Andalusia.

You have already begun to speak about Ciudadanos as well; you've entered into the fray with no holds barred, if you will allow me the colloquial expression. It appears that Ciudadanos is the party that can forge alliances with different sides. Some say that it could be seen as the generic brand of the PP and others the reverse, that it would be of the Socialist Party. Do you have any strategy yourself, as chairman of the People's Party (Partido Popular) in this regard?

President of the Government: The strategy we have in Andalucía is what the People's Party of Andalusia has determined. We think that in Andalusia, after thirty years of the same government, because the Socialist Party has governed at all times, and it is the only region of Spain where there has never been a change in government, we believe political change is good. We think the only party that can embody that political change is the People's Party. We also believe that the most important goal - and the one we must devote all our energies to in the coming years - is the creation of jobs in Andalusia. When the PP has governed, it has known how to make policies that have ultimately led to job creation.

There is an example of this, the work we have done in local councils. The People's Party governs in many small towns in Andalusia, but it governs in almost all the major cities and provincial capitals. I have been, for example, this weekend, in Cordoba, Granada and Almeria, and Roquetas too, in the province of Almeria. The PP is in power in all those places, and I think it has done well in the councils over the years.

That's what we're proposing to the people of Andalusia in this campaign, which ends this week.

Carlos Herrera: Yes, but with respect to the post-election strategy... I know you don't like to talk much about these things, but people talk about post-election strategy. They say: are they going to make Susana Díaz, if what the polls suggest turns out to be true, turn to Podemos even, in the face of a refusal on the part of the People's Party? In other words, would you push the PSOE closer to that other party that has now forced itself onto the political stage?

President of the Government: No. The position I have always defended is that whoever wins the elections should govern. We have said so in the local councils, we have defended this position at the national level, we have defended it in the autonomous regions and that is my position, unless of course there are some special circumstances involved, right? Elections are being held now in Andalusia. They weren't due, because the government had a majority, and they should have been held in 2016. They could have been timed to coincide with local council elections, because it makes no sense to have elections in March; then in May; then the Catalan elections in September; and then the general election. But I believe, and would be in favour of the idea, that whoever wins the election should govern, and that's what our candidate Juanma Moreno has said. However, the fact is that the Socialists have not said the same.

Carlos Herrera: But then what happens is that you have to govern. In other words, you form a government, but then you have to issue laws.

President of the Government: Certainly, and you have to agree on them. That's the way the democratic game works. Whoever wins the elections has to take the initiative and to be elected president; whoever wins the elections has to try to form alliances, to try to reach agreements, because you can't govern if you do not have the majority needed to do so. But that's what happens in any democracy.

It's not a good idea to anticipate events. There's no point. We don't know what the outcome will be; but here in Spain, we have often governed without majorities. I remember that I was part of a government, the first People's Party government, with Mr Aznar as President of the Government, with 156 seats when the absolute majority is 175. That happens in most European countries and it happens in many councils in Spain. At some point, if you do not have a majority, you have to form alliances.

Carlos Herrera: You spoke this weekend of a million jobs in Andalusia.

President of the Government: Yes.

Carlos Herrera: Haven't you gone a little bit overboard? Doesn't it seem a little vacuous to discuss concrete figures with the experience there is in that regard?

President of the Government: Not at all. Last year, 2014, jobs were created in Spain for the first time in seven years: 444,000 jobs were created. We saw growth that year, in 2014, of 1.4%. This year, 2015, we are clearly set to grow above 2%, so more than 500,000 jobs will be created.

So what we are saying is that in two years, 2014 and 2015, a million jobs will be created in Spain. I think in the next term of office, four years, if we maintain the economic policies we have implemented ... Of course, if we dedicate ourselves to do things that are contrary to common sense and logic, no; but, if we maintain the economic policies 500,000 jobs can be created each year. They can be created for a reason that everyone understands: last year 440,000 were created, and this year there will be over 500,000. Of this total, 575,000 would be created in Andalusia. I believe that can be done, if we maintain the policies we are pursuing.

What I said yesterday is that if the regional government also implements policies dedicated to job creation, to promoting the performance of entrepreneurs and creating the conditions for people to invest, Andalusia could create 500,000 jobs over all that time, which would put it at the same level of employment as the national average. At this point in Andalusia there are more unemployed than in other regions and there is no reason for that to be so. If good policies are implemented at the regional level, you can achieve the employment levels of other autonomous regions.

So it can be achieved, it must be achieved. We have already shown last year and so far this, that things can move in that direction. Look, in the past month of February 96,000 Spanish people registered with the Social Security system. In a month like February - which is usually not a good month for jobs - that's a very positive thing. So it can be done, must be done and has to be the great national goal. That would mean having twenty million Spanish people in work, which is something we had in the past, for a very short time, but we had it. That is the goal that we have set as the major goal for the future.

Carlos Herrera: Are the elections in Andalusia something of a dress rehearsal for the elections? I mean, can they condition the elections that will come after to any extent?

President of the Government: I think not, elections in Spain are very different. This year we have so far, and as far as we know, these elections in March; then in May we have elections in twelve or thirteen Spanish regions, I think it's in thirteen; we have elections in all the local councils; we will have the Catalan elections, at least they are announced for 27 September, and then the general election.

The elections are different. We had some excellent results in Andalusia in the last general election and have won the last regional election; elsewhere things have occurred otherwise. People distinguish between elections, but in any event, all elections have political value.

Carlos Herrera: Is the two party system over?

President of the Government: We shall see. Actually, in Spain there has not been a two-party system as such, because in Spain, when I was at the State of the Nation Debate, which took place recently, I had to debate with fourteen speakers. It is true that some were from groups that had only one Member of Parliament, but there were fourteen. Apart from the People's Party and the Socialist Party, Convergència i Unió, UPyD, the United Left (Izquierda Unida) and the Basque Nationalist Party have their own parliamentary groups, and then there are groups with two, three, four or even five Members of Parliament. So there is no two-party system at this time in Spain.

But in the end, that is something the Spanish people have to decide. I would only say one thing: what some people call the two-party model has worked. We now live in a country - we sometimes castigate ourselves, don't we, and only emphasise what is not good - with a democratic regime and a regime of freedom like no other; we have joined the European Union, we are among the five countries in the world that have increased their per capita income most in the last forty years, and we have superb infrastructure. Look, this weekend I went from Madrid to Cordoba on the AVE, and not many countries have high-speed trains; from Cordoba to Granada I travelled by motorway, and from Granada to Almeria I travelled by another motorway. This is what I did this weekend in my political activity.

So this is an important country. We receive 65 million tourists. Look, I think this is a great country and I believe that the parties who have been in government have done a great service to it; but more importantly, we have to bear in mind that this is a decision of the Spanish people.

Carlos Herrera: However, it is also a country that unfortunately holds high positions in other rankings, in inequality for example: in labour inequality, in inequality between men and women, in social inequalities that have worsened with the crisis or in extreme poverty in certain social strata, it could be said that we rank higher than our neighbours. And all this has worsened during the time in which you have also governed, almost four years.

President of the Government: Spain is a country that at a time when it has gone through a huge economic crisis - this economic crisis suffered is probably the most severe economic crisis that our country has experienced in dozens of years - in this situation the country has maintained its public pension system and there are many countries in the world that do not have one; it has maintained a healthcare system that is among the best in the world, although there are often problems, but it is among the best in the world and, of course, the Spanish health professionals are also among the best in the world. It has a highly advanced education system and Spain has maintained the care for the unemployed. This year we've spent 30 billion euros on unemployment, 30 billion, which is the second biggest item, after pensions, in the State Budget.

It is true that we have had a very tough crisis, but I think that even in a situation of crisis as severe as this, Spain, Spanish society, its institutions and its government have held their head up, and we have managed to maintain the major services.

You have mentioned the inequality indices. It is true that, especially starting in 2008 and until 2012, inequality indices were rising; but if you look at the indices established by the European Commission, Eurostat, which are the official indices, in 2013, for the first time in seven years, they started to decline. They're technically very complicated indices (the 80-20, the Gini index and the Arope index, which measures poverty), but they have started to improve. The latest data we have is for 2013, we still don't have those for 2014; but I am absolutely convinced that in 2014 we will also have improved.

In the end, the most important thing for us is to be able to improve those rates, so there is a bigger middle class and so that people have a higher standard of living; the most important thing is to create jobs because when you create jobs, people work -the lack of employment is the worst thing for questions of inequality- but, besides working, the people who work pay taxes and therefore the State collects more and can spend more on health, it can spend more on education and it can spend more on social services.

So yes, we have passed through a very serious crisis; but you must also see that in a crisis like this Spain and the Spanish people, this country, managed to maintain the basic pillars of the welfare state and that should encourage us for the future.

Carlos Herrera: Why has the People's Party not engaged in politics? I mean, it has basically worked on the economy in its term in office.

President of the Government: Yes, that is indeed a comment made by many people. It's a matter of priorities.

I remember my first interview as President of the Government. It was with you, here. You interviewed me, in this building, and the main objective at the time was exactly what it was. In life you have to set priorities and the main objective, and the most important thing we have done in this term of office, the most important, was to prevent the bailout of the Spanish economy. If the Spanish economy had gone bankrupt, as happened to some other economies in the Eurozone that you can all think of, if we had had to resort to a bailout, we would have lost our economic sovereignty.

In preparing for this interview, I was reviewing some of the things the media were saying three years ago. Look, there's one country - and I'm not going to name names, because there's no point - that has slashed pensions by 40%; that has left 30,000 public-sector employees out of a job for at least a year; whose government has lowered the income tax personal allowance to 5,000 euros ... I believe, first of all, that we have preserved our economic sovereignty; but secondly, we have avoided having to implement some very harsh policies.

That was the most important thing and it took a lot of hard work. I had to take decisions that went against my own election manifesto and against my way of thinking, but when we got here, the fact is that we were on the verge of bankruptcy. Spain had lost 70 billion euros of revenue. In other words, if we have a budget and within two years lose 70 billion euros of revenue, we have a very big problem and, of course, we can't maintain the same levels of expenditure.

That is what we dedicated ourselves to above all that year, which was tough and very difficult because there was pressure for us to accept the bailout. That is the most important thing we did in our term of office, because that is what later - with structural reforms - meant we could say already in 2014 that we have grown, more than anyone else; and what's more, we are creating jobs, more than anyone else.

So having said that, have we not engaged in politics? Well, probably not, but when prioritising the most important thing was to save Spain from a situation that at the time, and we are talking about the year 2012, was dramatic.

Carlos Herrera: Isn't the bailout of the financial sector a kind of bailout?

President of the Government: Yes, but it is something completely different. Sometimes people say "you have bailed out the financial sector." Yes, of course. I didn't think I would nationalise banks. I head a centre-right government and yet, of course, I am the first President of the Government of Spain to nationalise a bank. But why have I nationalised banks? Was it in my election manifesto? No, but of course you have to take decisions that are good for the general interest.

I could have left them to go bankrupt; but of course, if we allow banks to fail, who pays the deposits people have in them? The workers in those banks, of which there were three: the Galician, Caixa de Catalunya Caixa - not the traditional Caixa, the other one - and Bankia, where Bancaja, a major financial institution, was also integrated? If we hadn't done what we did, we would have been in the following situation: first, people would have been left without their deposits and, of course, without their mutual funds and anything else they had there; and everyone who worked there would have lost their jobs. Spain would have lost some major financial institutions and we would have had a great deal more difficulty in obtaining credit.

What we did was ask for a loan. We have to start paying the principal within ten years - nine years now - with an interest rate that is now 0.5%. We believe that much of this loan will be paid back as we put some of these institutions on the market. Two are already there, and for example, we recently returned a significant portion of this loan, even though we have no obligation to do so for another ten years.

It was very tough, because, of course, to find half the Spanish financial system bankrupt is certainly not pleasant, but today the Spanish financial system has passed the European Central Bank's stress test and is one of the most secure in Europe.

Carlos Herrera: The issues that have to do with corruption are often cases in which political leaders normally point their fingers at the other side. Recently, in the last debate, when they mentioned "Gürtel" your response has always been to mention the EREs (workforce reduction plans), hasn't it? It's like saying "and you're worse". I would like you in the next few minutes think about everything that has affected the People's Party. Tell me if the payments and secret funding of the People's Party - the judge Ruz puts it at 1.7 million euros in "black" money for the reform of the headquarters - correspond to a secret double accounting of your party. For all this, to what extent are you and the leaders of the People's Party responsible?

President of the Government: To be perfectly frank, I didn't know anything about this secret double accounting, if it existed. Of course, the secret "B" accounting book is not of the People's Party; it would be of the person who created the B accounts, which is Mr Bárcenas, who is the one that has given the information to the media; he or someone else. But of course, the People's Party, the People's Party as such, has no secret B accounting book. Neither I, as chairman of the party for many years, nor the former chairman, nor all the general secretaries of the party, knew about the party's alleged B accounting book. So that's all I have to say about that and with respect to everything else, I bow to the findings of the courts.

The issue of corruption is certainly among the worst in my experience in Spain in recent years. People have every reason to be upset with these things. We have tried to ensure that this does not occur again in the future. There are some positive things, because many laws have been passed that will make it much more difficult in the future, and there is another positive factor: the Police, Civil Guard, the State Tax Administration, the State Public Accounts Department, the Public Prosecutor and the Justice system are acting and are acting forcefully, as we are seeing now.

The people who were involved in these cases of corruption are no longer in our party and I, of course, am willing to take any decision to make us more effective against something that, undoubtedly, should never happen again in our country, in any way whatsoever.

Carlos Herrera: Yesterday Felipe González said in an interview that it is wrong to remove those under judicial scrutiny from the electoral lists. Do you agree with him?

President of the Government: That depends. It depends because there is judicial scrutiny and judicial scrutiny. Being under judicial scrutiny does not mean a conviction. The fact is that when a person appears anywhere and is suspected of something, but then nothing happens to him, the trend is for that person automatically to be seen as someone who can't engage in politics anymore. We have had many cases in the recent history of Spain and we have had many cases in recent days. Not long ago the Supreme Court dismissed charges that had been filed against major political leaders, and I'm not going to go into names now, because there's no point.

The big problem with charging someone and making that person ineligible to stand for election on the grounds of being charged is that he is put on trial before the event. I believe that all cases are different and, therefore, in each specific case a specific decision has to be taken.

Carlos Herrera: The "Gürtel case" will go to court starting January next year, I believe. What do you expect from the trial and to what extent do you think it could affect your political interests?

President of the Government: What I hope is that it happens soon and I hope that justice is done. And, I of course, will abide by what Justice dictates. It is a matter with which we have coexisted since early 2009, which was when we learned about it, when it was revealed to the general public. Now it is 2015 and I think the sooner the matter is closed and the guilty are determined, and also those who are innocent... But above all, and this of course I do expect, justice must be done. And that is something very positive, as happens in many other cases: that the system of Justice and the Public Prosecutor are acting with complete independence.

Look, that's something very positive among so many negative things related to this matter.

Carlos Herrera: While we're on the subject, you would favour limiting the time taken for the investigation proceedings?

President of the Government: Yes, I am in fact so much in favour that we already have a bill prepared for it.

Carlos Herrera: More questions having to do with ... Are you still eager to send text messages by phone, after a certain experience you have had?

President of the Government: I will continue sending text messages by phone because I trust people and you will understand that things that may have happened to me are not going to condition my life. I certainly trust people and, therefore, I still send text messages, because I don't want to be isolated from the world. Today it's difficult to get by without a mobile phone.

Carlos Herrera: Of those issues that are eating away at the election interests of the People's Party which do you think is doing most harm?

President of the Government: It's hard to say; but I think that these cases we've just spoken of have done us great harm. Clearly, they have done us a great deal of damage and that is to be expected. But, I repeat, the people who were involved in these matters are no longer in our political party; the police, the courts, and the Public Prosecutor, have had full independence to act. And that is what they are doing, as we are seeing all the time. And then we have adopted a comprehensive legislative package to prevent these things from happening again in the future.

But probably it's that issue.

Carlos Herrera: Now, for a judge to say that the PP is a participant with respect to income in the matters of Bárcenas and "Gürtel" is hardly something trivial.

President of the Government: What he said is that to be a participant with respect to income, which was also said of Ana Mato at the time, means - while not knowing the events that have occurred - to be just that, a participant in earnings. What does that mean?

That a candidate for mayor received financial assistance at some time from someone we don't know exactly who, and then went on his election campaign. So, of course, the People's Party across the whole of Spain is, in a way, a participant in what happened in that local council; but obviously, the People's Party in Spain had not the faintest idea that this had occurred at that local council.

Carlos Herrera: What reforms are still pending for this Government? It is always said that on one hand, you have cut the structures of the state to such an extent that you have virtually excluded many people from welfare; but on the other, you are told that you have not yet really streamlined the State enough, that this government's public spending is still colossal.

President of the Government: What do we spend the money on in Spain, the budget of the Government of Spain, the Government I head, leaving aside the regions? Some 40% of the budget is dedicated to payment of pensions. In Spain there are 9,200,000 pensioners and, of course, the Government's highest is to create jobs, among other things, because the more people are working the more people will pay into the Social Security system and we will be able to maintain and improve pensions: 40% goes on pensions.

The other two major items in the budget are: unemployment insurance, on which we have spent 30 billion over these years, and then the interest on the debt. Fortunately, the interest on debt is already falling, because before we paid huge interest rates and now thanks to our policies our risk premium has fallen and we can finance ourselves much more cheaply.

That's the bulk of the spending; and then there are transfers to regional and local governments.

I'll give you a figure which is certainly striking. The ministerial departments of Justice, Home Affairs, Defence and Foreign Affairs between them, the four departments that are called the Ministry of State, did not spend in total even half of what we dedicate to unemployment insurance. So when you say "you do not engage in social policies", the bulk of spending, of both central government and the autonomous regions, whatever the party in power, is dedicated to social spending.

What remains to be done from now to the end of our term of office? What remains is to create jobs; and this year 500,000 jobs will be created. And we have made some important decisions in recent days, which I announced at the State of the Nation debate. For example, when you hire a person, the first 500 euros of his or her salary are not subject to Social Security contributions. That's a very significant cut in Social Security payments. And I would remind you that Social Security contributions are the biggest tax paid by employer and employee. That has been a very significant drop; and just as the flat rate for Social Security worked at the time, this will also help create jobs.

We are continuing to streamline the public administration. The administrative reform is one of the most ambitious operations that have been carried out in recent years. We are also applying the Market Unity Act, so that there aren't 17 rules on various topics that make people go crazy. And we are continuing to reform the economy.

In other words, I think we have turned the situation round: before, there was negative growth and unemployment; now, job creation is beginning, as is growth. The important thing is keep on track, maintain this pace, so that we can continue to talk about this in the future.

Carlos Herrera: Two more questions that have to do with the People's Party, before we talk about other areas of policy for which the Government is responsible. One has been the appointment of your candidates in the Autonomous Region of Madrid. It is said that the appointment of Esperanza Aguirre isn't to your liking, but it is what gives the People's Party the biggest chance of maintaining the position of mayor in the city. However, you don't want her to be chairperson of the PP in Madrid. Why is that? And second, why can she govern the city of Madrid and not the PP of Madrid?

President of the Government: Let's see. Preparing electoral lists is probably one of the hardest things a political leader has to do. It is always difficult when you have to choose between people, because you never know if you are making the right choice and you can never be totally and completely convinced; but that happens in any facet of life. If you are put into any position of responsibility, you have to form a team and you have to try to get the best people, people you trust, people who are effective, and it is not easy to get it right. And, as I say, taking decisions about people is always hard because you can go wrong and you might not be being fair.
When we took the decision on the candidates, and the lists are now closed for practically all the upcoming elections, we tried to get it right. That means we were not moved by any motivation other than presenting, in this case to the people of Madrid, the best that we have. And I believe that both Esperanza Aguirre and Cristina Cifuentes are people who already have some political experience. They are well known, and above all they are enthusiastic, have the resolve, determination and courage to tackle this election campaign and to govern in the coming years, if people so choose.

That being said, the important point is that for the party in Madrid, the person who is mayor of Madrid is dedicated to being Mayor of Madrid. The Mayor of Madrid has never been the chairman of the party in Madrid and I think we should return to a model in which the party chairman in Madrid is dedicated to the party in Madrid and the Mayor to what the Mayor does, and the president of the autonomous region to those specific functions. There is no other explanation or anything other than what I just said.

Carlos Herrera: Was not choosing Ignacio González conditioned by some kind of fear that during the election campaign some trouble could be stirred up with respect to the issue, on which, incidentally, the courts have absolved him anyway?

President of the Government: No. I think Ignacio Gonzalez, who assumed the responsibility to govern the Autonomous Region of Madrid some time ago when Esperanza Aguirre resigned shortly after the last regional elections, has had to govern, like others, at a time of extreme difficulty. It has not been easy for him, as it had not been for others. Madrid has fulfilled its deficit commitments, it is growing economically, but at this point in time it was considered better to take the decision we have taken.

Carlos Herrera: But through any feeling of trepidation.

President of the Government: No, no, no.

Carlos Herrera: Did the "Operation Púnica", for example, that involves to such an extent some politicians in the People's Party, weigh on this decision?

President of the Government: Not at all. A leader can't... You have to consider what people say, what they think, public opinion; but of course there are some responsibilities and some decisions that have to be taken by the person who has to take them and not by public opinion. Our political party has the right, like all other political parties, to take decisions, just like a media mogul has the right to take his.

Carlos Herrera: You said it would not allow a referendum on independence, call it what you may, to be held in Catalonia; however, the referendum was held. What responsibility do you admit or what self-criticism do you make with respect to this?

President of the Government: Let's see, Carlos. That the referendum was held ... The referendum was banned by the Constitutional Court, the first and second referendums, and what was held was not a referendum. It was, at best, a mock referendum, because there was no electoral board, no members of ballot tables - I recall that some political leaders of the parties supporting it took their place at the ballot table; there were no controllers, or representatives, and we don't know how it was counted. That's not a referendum. That is something that was done by some people with no guarantees, no political value. It's a sham, really.

I think on this matter we have acted - and I really do think so - firmly and with a sense of proportion. Both are very important. Being firm: I said there would be no referendum and I said I would not bargain about the unity of Spain, or about national sovereignty, or about the rights of the Spanish people, or about the equality between all of them; and I will never negotiate; but then you have to act with a sense of proportion. Maybe there were people who wanted this to have been prevented. They may be right, or not; but I think that prudence is perfectly compatible with determination and proportionality and it is also compatible with firmness, and I sincerely believe that we did what had to be done.

Carlos Herrera: What happens the day after elections - if they occur, that remains to be seen - and there is the necessary majority, and the Catalan Parliament speaks out saying that it declares Catalonia independent? What would the next step be?

President of the Government: It is never a good idea to anticipate events in any facet of life. Decisions have to be taken and, above all, we must announce them when the events occur that motivate them.

I think these things are best resolved through dialogue, but setting out clearly the positions of each side. I have said, and I repeat it here, and in the end it will happen: the President of the Government of Spain - and I think whoever that may be, now it's me, but whoever the President of the Government of Spain is - will never accept, never, to talk about what I have explained: neither the unity of Spain, nor national sovereignty, nor equality among the people of Spain, nor fundamental rights.

When people say "I have the right to decide," it seems very good to me, the right to decide; but deciding on what Spain is, is something that all the people of Spain have to decide on, not just one part of them, those who live in one region yes, but those that live in another, no. Everyone must decide on what Spain is. In other words, you who weren't born there decide on what Santiago de Compostela is, as does everyone. And in Catalonia it is exactly the same. That is what national sovereignty is, and not even the country's legislative body, not even Parliament, can do away with national sovereignty.

So I will not have any talks on this matter. I think this makes no sense; I think most people - indeed, according to the data we were given voting was less than one third of people - are not interested in it and I think it would be very bad for the people of Catalonia and indeed very bad for all the people of Spain.

Our country has 46 million inhabitants, and with an established position in Europe. We are the oldest country in Europe - there is no country in Europe with national unity for such a long time - and we are linked by all kinds of ties: of affection, trade, personal, people who went to live away, people who came here, people who got married, Catalans with people who were not Catalans ... I mean, we are joined by all kinds of ties and this goes against the signs of the times.

It's absurd. We are in a European Union, we don't have our own currency, we have already ceded banking supervision, major decisions, where those from Barbate do their fishing is now decided in the European Union ... It makes no sense to raise this issue, so I think this won't go anywhere in the future, luckily for all involved.

Carlos Herrera: Of course, but a disturbance like this, which can occur regardless of whether we know the laws and you yourself have outlined the reasoning now, does that oblige a move by the government to send troops, to suspend the charter of autonomy ...? Precisely what move does a government make?

President of the Government: For now, we should not anticipate events. Everyone was watching what would happen, a referendum in November, now they are going to announce something, sovereignty ... For now, things are the way they are and today they are far calmer than a year ago. So let's give it time and try to solve problems without going into long debates. For now, things are quieter than a year ago and I am convinced that a year from now they will be quieter than today.

Carlos Herrera: European Affairs. One of the members of the Greek Government said that if Greece left the euro, that would put a break on Spain and cause it harm, and it would be the next in line. Is it bravado? Does it make sense? Is it a warning?

President of the Government: That makes no sense. Spain is already over the worst and Spain is a country that gets finance from the markets without any problems. We are now paying 1% for money at 10 years, which is the cheapest rate in history; and that is what the Government of Spain is paying. Today what we have is the cheapest money in history.

I don't want Greece to leave the euro. I don't think that would be good, either for the Greeks or for Europe as a whole; but I would like Greece to fulfil its commitments, like all the other countries. You can't have twenty-seven countries fulfilling their commitments and one deciding not to comply.

Europe has helped Greece a great deal. Spain gave it a loan in 2010, the government of Rodriguez Zapatero loaned it 7 billion euros, with my vote in favour from the opposition bench, and then we guaranteed 18 billion euros for Greece.

Greece today can't borrow on the markets. Its creditor is now the European Union. We are the only creditors it has. We have loaned it a great deal of money and they have to start to pay it back within thirty years, the principal of the loan and the interest, the bulk of it, they will begin to pay back within ten years. In other words, the conditions are absolutely unbeatable.

We are able to continue helping Greece, but Greece also has to help herself and has to take decisions, in the same way that other countries of the European Union have taken them, all of them. It must fulfil its commitments. Germany fulfils its commitments, so does France, the UK and Spain; and Greece must do so as well.

Now, having said that, today, the situation in Greece and Spain, fortunately, has absolutely nothing in common. But I do want Greece to remain in the euro.

Carlos Herrera: When you say that to the Greek President, is the situation tense? Have you said the same thing you just said to me to him?

President of the Government: Yes. Actually, I have not had the chance. The Greek president, a short time ago, after lashing out at Germany, he could not think of anything better to say than that the presidents of the Portuguese Government and of the Government of Spain were trying to overthrow him. That's not something anyone else would dream of. Aside from being absolutely false, it does not make the slightest sense. Being reasonable, I would have to answer saying, I'm not doing that.

Now he has lashed out again at Germany. I think that's a mistake. You can't go through life, excuse me for saying so, throwing punches at everyone else. I mean, things are resolved with dialogue, in a civilised and correct manner, and I hope that Greece meets its commitments. There is willingness on the part of everyone and that's what everyone wants; but what can't be is for Greece to say "you give me money and I'll do what I consider necessary and appropriate." No, you must do the same as others. It's not in a worse position, far from it; but neither can it be in a better position.

Carlos Herrera: Who would you seek agreement with in a future scenario?

President of the Government: As well you know, that has to be seen in the future, doesn't it? At this point in time I haven't thought about who I will try to seek agreements with. Among other things, we have a majority. I always think the major national agreements are always with the other main party in Spain. I always say that in foreign policy, in defence policy, in everything that affects national unity, the Constitution, and so on, in all that we must seek agreements with the PSOE. Then you can look for agreements with many others.

In fact, in Spain there have been many different ways to reach understanding when there was no majority. Now there are autonomous regions where there is no majority: the PSOE was governing with the United Left in Andalusia until recently; we are governing Aragon with the PAR, which before was governing with the Socialist Party; Catalonia is governed as it is being governed; and in Asturias the People's Party is supporting the Socialist Party because if not, Asturias can't be governed.

Let's see what the maths tells us and we'll see how things are every time it has to be done. The important thing is always that whoever wins the election is the one that takes the initiative and has to make an effort to obtain a majority, because without a majority there can be no government. If one takes laws to Parliament and they are not approved, there is no government and so there have to be new elections.

Carlos Herrera: In a possessed scenario or a possessed Parliament after the general election, more fragmented and more difficult, would you contemplate a stability pact with the PSOE, German style, to push through the great affairs of state?

President of the Government: Let's see, Carlos. At the present time I am not considering anything and I am considering everything. That is a decision that will have to be taken in the future; but here and now, there will not be elections for a few months. We don't know what the outcome will be and we don't know what the situation will be at that time. So it makes no sense to speculate on this subject, it's not what I do. I have not made any decision on this matter, because we don't know what the election results will be.

What worries me most today with respect to what might happen in Spain in the future is a change in economic policy. Three years ago we had a threat, bankruptcy; then we had another threat, which was a bailout of Spain; and then we had the threat of not being able to grow and create jobs, and that many people would be a lot worse off than they were. These harsh and terrible threats, which we had to fight with great determination, have now been overcome. Today the greatest threat is a change to the economic policy which has made us grow and create jobs. That's how I see it. I believe that we must continue maintaining it because, as I said earlier, we could reach 20 million jobs at the rate of 500,000 per year, if we can do things right. It can be done.

So that's what should matter most to us in the future and anything I do in the future will have that goal. You can compromise on other things, and whenever you reach agreements there is compromise; but of course, the one thing that you should not do at this time in Spain is to change an economic policy that is working and that everyone outside Spain is valuing positively.

Carlos Herrera: What are the major risks to stability now? It has always been said, and it may even have been suggested in Europe: the emergence of populist forces, the imbalance that may be caused by the Catalan government proposing an impossible independence... What are the risks to stability?

President of the Government: In this term of office we have had to deal with some very complex situations. Note that in this term we had everything to do with the economy, which has not yet been overcome, but obviously we are emerging from all this; though, as I say, we still have much to do to continue to create jobs and grow economically. We had the succession to the Head of State, which frankly came out really well and Spanish society as a whole lived up to it and showed that this is a country with constitution and institutions that function well. We had events in Catalonia and the challenge (the situation today is better, as I mentioned to you) and we have had problems with corruption. Political leaders have to operate on the field of play that exists at any time and they must be able to deal with difficult situations.

You speak of populist parties. In recent times, this has happened in Europe in general, not only in Spain, eh! All across Europe. Probably as a result of the severe economic crisis and the problems resulting from the creation of Europe, which is not that easy. In Greece we had the appearance of a far-left party - that's how they call themselves; but in France the far right has won the European elections; in the UK the European elections were won by Mr Farage, who has a position that is clearly anti-European; in Germany too right-wing groups are emerging against the euro and the same thing or something similar has happened in Italy.
So some of us remain committed to the idea that at the end of the day, the major countries, those that work, that generate employment, welfare and wealth, are those with established political systems that do not change every half hour. In the United States there are two parties, and it works; in the UK there are basically two, Labour and the Conservative; the same is true in Germany and the same happens in France.

Stability is very important. Now, as I said at the beginning of this interview, it is the people, in this case the Spanish people, who have to decide what they want. That is the basic rule of democracy. But of course, my obligation is to say that what I think it is that has brought stability to our country, what has given progress to our country, although we now had a major crisis, has been established parties that at the end of the day are institutions, not the projects of a single person or projects that arise and suddenly in three months appear to be something important, and three months after that no longer appear to be so.

Carlos Herrera: Do you miss Mr Pérez Rubalcaba much?

President of the Government: Pérez Rubalcaba is a political leader with experience; in some situations we have lived through while I was President of the Government he has proved himself equal to the occasion. I've had confrontations, in the positive sense of the word "confrontations", with Mr Pérez Rubalcaba. He was my political opponent, stood for the elections, I debated with him in Parliament and outside; but what I can never deny, because it would not be true, is that Mr Pérez Rubalcaba is a capable person and what`s more is a person who in matters of State has always stood up to the mark.

Carlos Herrera: Would you say the same about his successor?

President of the Government: I don't know him as well, so we will give it time. Pedro Sánchez began to make his mark recently, because he was a Member of Parliament who was not well known - in fact, I didn't know him. So he must be given time, as everyone needs to be given time. The important thing is to have a strong personality and not be swayed by the to and fro of heated debate and the like.

Carlos Herrera: There are some questions that my colleagues sent me for the three or four minutes that remain. One is when you stated that you can't be mayor and at the same time run the People's Party. Ms De Cospedal is president of the regional government of Castile-La Mancha and also is General Secretary. Does that mean she will cease to be General Secretary?

President of the Government: No. María Dolores de Cospedal has been General Secretary since 2008. I asked her to accompany me when I presented myself as candidate at the congress in Valencia and she did. She has been General Secretary of the party in what have been very difficult times, extremely difficult. She has given herself heart and soul to Castile-La Mancha, we won there for the first time with her and she has travelled around Castile-La Mancha from top to bottom. She is serious, competent, reliable, and I want her to remain my General Secretary.

Carlos Herrera: So in this case yes, but it doesn't apply to the mayor.

President of the Government: Madrid is a different constituency. Madrid is the capital of Spain. Being Mayor of Madrid is very important; as is the case for the regional government of Castile-La Mancha. There was a tradition in Madrid: the region was one thing, the city another and the party leadership yet another. Different situations need different solutions.

Carlos Herrera: How do you see Spain twelve months from now?

President of the Government: Better than today. I see it better than today. I think that more people will be in work; I think that although we have lowered personal income tax, the government will raise more revenue because there is more economic activity and therefore believe that we can devote more resources to the care services that Spanish people want. I see Spain better, but not as god as the following year.

These recent years, particularly 2012 and 2013 and before that - the worst was probably 2009 - all of them (2008, 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2012) have been very bad; in the latter part of 2013 we started to see the light, 2014 has been better and now there is already some evidence that this may get better; but we must keep fighting. We can never lower our guard, we can never stop; but I see many more jobs and that, as I have said in this interview, is what Spain needs most at this time.

Carlos Herrera: That's the headline I will remember. I mean, you would say "Rajoy: next year will have twenty million jobs."

President of the Government: No, no, next year, no; in the government's next term of office.

We will have 500,000 more jobs than we have now. In 2014 we created 440,000 and I hope that this year, 2015, there will be 500,000 jobs created or a little more, so in the last two years of this term of office we will have created a million jobs. And in the next term of office we will have to create two million to reach a figure of twenty million, which was the highest number of jobs we ever had in Spain. If we had it before, there is no reason we can't get there again.

Carlos Herrera: Mr Mariano Rajoy, I am glad to have spoken with you. Thank you for your time. Good luck.

President of the Government: Thank you. It has been a pleasure.