Press conference by the President of the Government and the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom

Madrid

President of the Government: Ladies and gentlemen, a very good afternoon and thank you very much for being here.

First of all, I would like to welcome more formally and to the media, the British Prime Minister, David Cameron. This is the second time that we have had the good fortune of a visit from him with his team here at the Moncloa Palace; we have since had the opportunity to exchange points of view and to help each other mutually in a number of meetings that are normally held in Brussels. But this is the second time that he has been here, in Moncloa.

I would just like to tell you that bilateral relations are magnificent, as are trading relations and investment relations, not only between governments but between our people. You know that I like to say that this year is the most significant for tourism in the history of Spain, because more tourists have come than ever before and because they have spent more than ever before; and leading the way are the British. So we are very grateful and hope that they continue to choose Spain as the place to go on holiday. There are also many British citizens working here and there are many people who live part of the year here and the other part in their own country.

So without further ado, and repeating my thanks to Mr Cameron, I am going to go into more details on the subjects we have dealt with at the meeting today, which have basically been four: first, the British proposal for the reform of the European Union; second, the subjects of immigration and asylum; third, we have discussed the economic and political situation in Spain, the United Kingdom and the European Union; and finally, we have discussed some issues of current international concern that are important to everyone, specifically, the situation in Syria, Libya and Ukraine.

I'll make a brief summary, then Mr Cameron will give the speech he considers opportune and appropriate, and then we will move on to the questions.

Firstly, as he has been doing with other heads of government, or indeed heads of state, of the European Union, Mr Cameron is explaining his proposals for the reform of the European Union and at the same time, how he wants to call a referendum in which he will ask for a "yes", in other words, for the United Kingdom to remain in the European Union after any reforms that can be introduced.

The position of the Spanish government on this reform proposal is as follows: we want the United Kingdom to continue in the European Union and it would be something unthinkable and a setback that I wouldn't even want to imagine, for the United Kingdom not to be in the European Union; and so, second, we hope that this process that has already begun ends with the reaffirmation of the commitment of the United Kingdom and all the citizens of Britain to the European Union.

The position that will be adopted by the Spanish Government will be a constructive and a flexible one. Let's consider the proposals that may be made to us. What we have listened to so far appears positive, and the substance of what has been said, which is where we should focus, is very positive. So initially I told Mr Cameron, without prejudice to the aspects that we may have to fine-tune in the future, that Spain will do everything in its power for things to go well, on the basis, I repeat, that what we have been told so far is very positive.

We agree on important matters and on what must be the major goals for Europe in the future, such as enhancing the competitiveness of our economies, because that is what will in the end bring welfare and wealth to the people. It is very important to continue to work on the internal market and it is also important for the European Commission to take decisions, and to do so quickly, to favour the work and role of small, medium-sized and also large companies. We believe that in many cases there is too much regulation. And we believe that it is also important that we should reach an agreement for a free trade treaty with the United States.

So, summing up this first point: Spain is sympathetic to the efforts that are being made by the British Prime Minister. We are convinced that things will turn out well and I urge him to continue with his work and all his efforts.

Secondly, we have talked about the situation of the Spanish economy. I'll sum it up briefly: you already know it well. We think that Spain will grow this year at 3.3% and we think that this year a total of 600,000 jobs will be created in the twelve months of 2015 in our country. Three years ago in Spain jobs were being destroyed at a yearly rate of 9%, and today they are being created at a rate of 8% per year. The change that has taken place between the years 2012 and 2015 is really very significant, and there are some data that encourage us to continue to persevere in this effort, because there are still many things to be done.

The data on revenue that have been released now are very stimulating, because revenues are growing, despite the cuts in income tax and corporate tax, which means that economic activity is on the rise, and which means that exports are continuing to rise, as is consumption and investment. There are good data from retail sales and tourism. We are managing to get money at very reasonable prices on the market, we have a foreign surplus and exports are improving.

Now it is a question of, as I said before, us continuing with our efforts. This has to reach all the Spanish people; we have already reached some, but it has to filter down to all the Spanish people. The main goal is for us to create 500,000 jobs per year each year over the next four years; this can be done, because last year the figure was 440,000, and this year 600,000. But this can only be done if we continue with the reforming policies that we have implemented over these years. If we achieve this objective, the level of welfare and wealth in our country will improve; it will improve a great deal, because more people in work means more resources for the State, and thus more public services.

Thirdly, we have discussed the issues of asylum and immigration. As you all know, we are well aware of this problem in Spain. More than 10% of people who are working in Spain are foreigners, not including the many people who have dual nationality and so we don't count them in this group of foreigners. These people have come to our country and in their immense majority have integrated, earn their living decently, contribute to our country's progress and at the same time contribute to their own progress. So we know what this issue involves.

Unfortunately for us we have also lived through tragic situations and moments such as those we are also seeing now across the European Union and that I am sure you recall. We are seeing situations that are really dramatic. We are seeing situations that are really tragic: images such as those published recently, that will affect all normal human beings and oblige us to take decisions and to do so with the greatest efficiency possible.

I believe that we are facing the most important challenge ever for the European Union, not now but in the coming years, more so even than the economic situation of some of our countries.

I would like to make some comments on asylum and other comments on immigration, together with some proposals, which I have discussed today with the British Prime Minister and which I have already put before the European Union. I will continue to push them forward over the next few days, because I repeat we are facing the most important challenge that Europe will have to deal with in the coming years.

Europe can in no way refuse to give asylum to people who have the right to it under international law. It forms part of our heritage as Europeans. We consider that it is the moral duty of all the people of Europe to continue to defend human rights, to defend freedom and to accept people who are persecuted in their countries for political reasons. Spain's position will therefore be constructive and positive, as it has always been, and all those people who ask for the right to asylum and have the right to it will be accepted, and we will work with the rest of the countries of the European Union to resolve this problem.

There is another matter different from asylum, which is the subject of illegal immigration for economic reasons. There are many people from many countries - the African continent may be closest to us, in fact it is closest to us and we know it best - who on many occasions deceived by mafias that promise them things that do not exist, move from one country to another endangering their lives, as we have unfortunately been able to witness. All these people undoubtedly generate a situation of enormous difficulty for them and also for the rest of the countries in the European Union.

The handling of this immigration phenomenon has to be comprehensive. I believe that the European Union has to take decisions and I believe that in Spain we can contribute ideas, because we have been capable of providing a reasonable solution to this issue, by working with many countries, above all in Africa.

The first thing that has to be done is a European Union plan that establishes economic cooperation with the countries of origin and transit. As long there exists no solution to the problem of not being able to live a decent life in these countries, the issue will never be resolved. An extensive cooperation plan is therefore required with these countries, as we implemented at the time and currently maintain.

Second, this plan must be accompanied by a fight against the mafias, carried out jointly between the countries of the African Union - countries that will be decided on when the time comes - and the countries of the European Union, headed up in this case by the Commission.

And third, a programme for return is required, like the one we have with some countries in the European Union.

This is, I repeat, a key issue. The aim is to prevent the deaths of many people being handled by mafias and the aim is to avoid situations that do not lead anywhere, disappointment for people as a whole; the aim is to improve the standard of living of the countries where they come from and from where they leave because they have no other choice and can't lead a decent life, and ensure that these countries can grow and generate situations of levels of welfare and wealth that are at least reasonable.

So the aim is to ensure that if someone wants to immigrate, the decision is voluntary, not because there is no other choice. The aim is to make it legal and so that it is never out of desperation, with the aim being to fight effectively against those mafias involved in people trafficking, abusing their rights and sometimes costing them their lives.

These are, ladies and gentlemen, the most important issues. I now pass you on to the British Prime Minister, Mr David Cameron, once more repeating my thanks.

Mr Cameron: Thank you Prime Minister Rajoy, thank you Mariano my friend, it's very good to be back here in Madrid today. It is an opportunity to build on our incredibly strong relationship and, as two centre-right Prime Ministers, we want to develop that further.

It is two years since my last visit here. Back then, we discussed the tough decisions that we were both taking to turn our economies around. And today we are starting to see the benefits of those decisions. In the UK a job-led recovery has created more than a 1,000 jobs a day. Spain is set as you said, to grow by more than 3% this year - the fastest of any major economy in the Eurozone - and is now registering record-high job creation. We both want to finish the job, driving economic growth that will bring financial security and peace of mind for our hard-working people. And we want to use our valuable trading relationship - now worth over £45 billion every year - to help our people.

We've had fruitful discussions about that today and on EU reform, and on the migration crisis.

In relation to EU reform, we discussed my objectives; we talked about the 4 areas: competitiveness, sovereignty, social security and economic governance. These are reforms that I believe can benefit people across Europe and make the EU more successful.

As Mariano said we both want to exploit the full potential of the single market, while preserving its integrity for all 28 Member States. We both believe that further reform is needed within the Eurozone, while upholding the rights of those EU Member States that are outside the euro. We both want to complete the single market in services and energy. We agree the EU must do more to back start-ups and entrepreneurs. We want to create a genuine single market for businesses and consumers alike. And we want the European Union to conclude ambitious new trade deals with the United States, with Japan and with MERCOSUR, the South American trading bloc.

Of course, there are areas that will require more discussion to find the right solutions but I believe we can achieve this and I was very encouraged by what you said. The EU has proved in the past that it can be flexible enough to respond to Member States concerns. Now, it needs to do so again.

Turning to migration, this is clearly the biggest challenge facing countries across Europe today. More than 220,000 people were detected crossing the Mediterranean to Europe in the first 6 months of this year. These people came from different countries and different circumstances. Some are economic migrants in search of a better life in Europe. Many are refugees fleeing conflict. And, as Mariano has said, it is vital to distinguish between the two.

In recent weeks we have seen a vast increase in the numbers arriving from Turkey - more than 150,000 have attempted that route since June. The majority of these are from Syria, where more than 11 million people have been driven from their homes. Britain has a moral responsibility to help these refugees as we have done throughout our history. We have already provided sanctuary to more than 5,000 Syrians in Europe and earlier today in Lisbon I announced that we would extend our approach and offer resettlement for thousands more Syrian refugees currently in camps across the region. We will work with our partners on the details of these schemes and we will set out further details next week.

But this can only ever be a part of the answer. As I have said throughout, and as the President of the Government and I have discussed before, we must pursue a comprehensive approach to these issues. That means using our aid budget to alleviate suffering in the countries where these people are coming from.

The United Kingdom is the only major country in the world that has kept its promise to the poorest to spend 0.7% of our GDP on aid. We are already the main largest donor of bilateral aid to the Syrian conflict and today I can announce that we will provide a further £100 million, taking our total contribution to over £1 billion - that is the UK's largest ever response to a humanitarian crisis. No other European country has come close to this level of support. Sixty million pounds will go to help Syrians still in Syria. The rest will go to neighbouring countries - to Turkey, Jordan and Lebanon where Syrian refugees now account for one quarter of the population. The British support this policy.

It also means boosting our ongoing efforts to detect the smuggling gangs which Mariano Rajoy was just speaking about. We are providing support to the EU operation in the Mediterranean and we are deploying officers to Africa to identify what more we can to do to stop people being exploited by these traffickers in the first place. And it means continuing our efforts in the Mediterranean where we have vessels which continue to patrol the area and have so far rescued over 6,700 people.

So, Britain will act with her head and her heart. For those economic migrants seeking a better life, we will continue to work to break the link between getting on a boat and getting settlement in Europe, discouraging those who do not have a genuine claim from embarking on these journeys. For those genuine refugees fleeing civil war, we will act with compassion and continue to provide sanctuary. That is what a comprehensive approach means: It means stabilising the countries where the migrants are coming from. It means seeking a solution to the crisis in Syria. It means pushing for the formation of a new unity government in Libya. It means attacking these criminal gangs. It means saving lives using our aid budget. And yes, it does mean offering a place of sanctuary to those who have lost hope and who are genuinely fleeing persecution. We will continue to pursue all of those avenues and work with our partners in the European Union, and elsewhere, to deliver the comprehensive approach that can bring this crisis to an end.

President of the Government: Before any questions, I forgot to tell you one thing, which has probably been mentioned by the Vice-President of the Government at the press conference following the Council of Ministers. We have created an Inter-ministerial Committee to deal with the problem of asylum and immigration with a comprehensive approach. It will be chaired by the Vice-President of the Government, with members including Ministers and representatives from the Ministries of Justice, Home Affairs, Foreign Affairs, Employment and Health and Social Services. And we have also agreed to call a meeting of the Migration Committee, whose members include the Government of Spain, the regional governments and representatives of the Spanish Federation of Municipalities and Provinces.

The aim of this meeting is to determine the position we will adopt before the meeting of the Justice and Home Affairs Council of the European Union on 14 September. The goal is to organise this whole process. Here we all have to work together, and we all have to move together, we have to move with the same objectives and above all what we must be is effective, which is what we are required to be and what is really important for the people.

So I repeat, there is the Inter-ministerial Committee chaired by the Vice-President of the Government, and the meeting of the Sectoral Committee on Migrations so that the regional governments, local governments and government of the nation can work together on this, which I repeat, is the most important challenge we have faced in years.

Q: Mr Prime Minister, you're talking of taking in thousands more refugees from Syria, not tens of thousands. Won't some people see this as a token gesture that doesn't actually address the real humanitarian need, and nor does it address the actual fundamental cause of this crisis?

Secondly, you say that this is a crisis that has to be tackled at source. Does that now make that there will be British air strikes over Syria? Are these attacks inevitable?

And thirdly, your wife has visited refugee camps in her capacity as an ambassador for Save the Children. It's been reported that she has had a role in influencing your decision to allow more refugees in. What did she say to you?

Mr Cameron: First, On this issue, the number of people that we should take, we're going to talk to NGOs, we're going to talk to our partners, we're going to give this careful consideration, as we always do, as we did before the last announcement of creating schemes to take vulnerable people from Syrian refugee camps.

There is no actual number of people that we can take in that will bring this crisis to an end. To bring this crisis to an end you need a comprehensive approach, you need a government in Libya, you need a solution in Syria and you need to go on with the work within our aid budget which funds the refugee camps where the vast majority of Syrian refugees remain.

When I read out those figures, and you think of 11 million people being driven out of their homes, it's quite clear when you're dealing with a crisis of that scale, resettling refugees cannot be the answer to the problem; but Britain is a moral country with a moral conscience and we respond to humanitarian crises. And that is why we will be taking thousands of Syrian refugees. But let's not pretend that that alone will solve the problem; what's needed to solve the problem is this comprehensive approach.

In answer to your second question about Syria, we support the action that is being taken against DAESH in Syria. We are directly carrying it out in Iraq, where the RAF has carried out a whole series of strikes which have degraded and set back DAESH and I believe that process should continue and will continue. But we already support what is happening in Syria. We're providing intelligence, we're providing refuelling support. We back what is being done by the coalition, because it's vital that we weaken DAESH and destroy it in both countries. But we can only proceed further on this issue if there is a genuine consensus in the United Kingdom, before going back to Parliament.

On the third issue, we've been very consistent throughout. We've said there must be a comprehensive approach, Britain must live up to its moral responsibilities and we must act in all the ways that the British people would expect. That is why we were the first to send the Navy to the Mediterranean to save lives; that is why we have done far more than any other European country to fund those refugee camps and that is why we have allowed Syrian refugees to come to our country and will continue to do so.

Look, as a father and as a human being, you can't help but be moved by these terrible pictures. Seeing the picture of that poor child on the beach in Turkey..... Those images will remain with all of us for a very, very long time; but the question you have to ask, not just as a father, but as Prime Minister, is what are the actions that we can take that will really make a difference? And that is why accepting more refugees, because we can offer a new life to those we accept; those we accept we have to bring from refugee camps, because I believe that the most important thing about arriving to a new life is not to make this terrible trip, crossing continents and risking your life and that of your family. That is why we are taking in additional refugees, want to work with NGOs and take them directly from refugee camps rather than do anything that would encourage these desperately unsafe journeys that are leading to these appalling tragedies.

There's a lot more to do to bring Europe together to solve these problems, and the President of the Government and I have been discussing it over lunch. I think that the Spanish have a huge amount to offer here, for what they demonstrated over the crisis when there was a refugee crisis in the Canary Islands: they worked with the West African countries; they funded some of their coastguard and border measures...... Obviously we're dealing with a problem on a far bigger scale, but there are lessons to learn from the Spanish approach.

Q: I'd like to ask both leaders, President of the Government Mariano Rajoy and Prime Minister David Cameron, if they don't believe that the refugee crisis is being tackled too slowly by the European authorities.

Have there been changes, for example, this week, both in the Spanish approach and in that of the British government?

Have they been self-critical on this question, because it's true that on issues such as Greece, for example, it seems that action was quicker? I'd like you to explain.

Would Spain and the United Kingdom be prepared to take on larger quotas of refugees than those they are obliged to? Could you specify when you are going to start to take the refugees?

And a question specifically to the President of the Government of Spain. I would like to ask him about the proposals Spanish local councils have made on taking in refugees: if they are prepared to include them at the Inter-ministerial Committee set up to solve this problem, and if you don't think that they may to some extent be stealing a march, or taking the protaganism away from the Government on this issue?

And then, Prime Minister David Cameron has mentioned that he allocates 0.7% of GDP to cooperation and in Spain we have cut development aid. Is it now time to increase it?

President of the Government: That's very difficult; there are seven questions.

So have we acted with more or less lethargy? I recall that there was a decision by the Justice and Home Affairs Council of ministers of the European Union in July. There we established the commitments of the different countries, among them Spain, to take some people who were asking for the right to asylum, of Syrian and Eritrean nationality. It was agreed to bring to the European Union and give asylum to people who were in Syria, which I think is the correct action, because they are people who are there, who have been displaced, and they are brought here directly and taken in here; and at the same time, it was agreed to relocate other people who entered and remain in Greece and Italy.

Greece and Italy have committed themselves to deal with some of the petitions made in this Council and by the Commission itself as quickly as possible. We are waiting for the European Commission, which heads this process, to tell us when these people are going to come and when we will thus give them the right to asylum in our country.

You ask whether we are going to accept larger quotas than those we are obliged to. In Spain requests for asylum this year have tripled; in other words, and as I have mentioned earlier, Spain is constantly granting asylum to people who ask for it and there are many Syrian people who have already been granted the right to asylum in our country, or their petition is being processed. We will meet our commitments to the European Union. On 14 September, as I said, there will be a meeting with the Council of Justice and Home Affairs, and that is when we will know precisely what is required of us.

Now, what I want to do is repeat what I already said: neither Spain, nor I believe any other country in the European Union, is going to deny the right of asylum to anyone, given what the right to asylum implies. We haven't done so before and we won't do it now, as indeed is perfectly understandable.

With respect to the local councils, it doesn't seem very reasonable that all these local councils should be represented on the Inter-ministerial Committee, among other reasons because it is an inter-ministerial committee. As I said in my speech, they will be at the meeting of the Migration Committee; the regional governments and also representatives from the Spanish Federation of Municipalities and Provinces will be there. You will understand that if we want to be operational and we want to be effective, this process has to be orderly, everyone has to work together and have the same objectives. So far, the decisions taken by some councils are very worthy, and their offers are very worthy; but in fact we don't yet know how many people we have to take, for the reasons I have just referred to.

And I think that basically, that is what you asked me.

Mr Cameron: Let me just pick out two points. Have we been too slow on this issue? I would argue that we were swift to direct our aid budget towards this problem, swift to get the Royal Navy into the Mediterranean. But the Syrian problem is an extremely difficult one. You have President Assad, who has been butchering his own people; you have the emergence of DAESH who have created chaos and what Syria needs is a government that can represent and look after all of its people. But we are some way away from that; and so the fundamental cause of particularly the eastern Mediterranean migration is going to take a lot of time to tackle; we have to act with patience, with hard work, to put things right and there is a willingness to do so.

But I think that as well as responding swiftly we have to respond effectively and I think that in Europe we've got to identify and understand the importance of breaking this link between getting on a boat and getting settlement in Europe, especially when talking about emigration from Africa. But for this Libya needs a government, which receives support when it comes to returning economic migrants to Africa. Unless you can break the link - particularly when it comes to economic migration - between departing and getting settled, then you will have a very serious problem. So I hope that Europe will consider those issues.

On the issue of quotas, Britain is not part of Schengen, we've maintained our border controls, so we do not form part of quota of migrants who get spread around Europe. But we will do our bit by taking refugees directly from the refugee camps. We think this is the better approach, because you're not saying to people, "make a dangerous crossing and we'll give you asylum." We will take these people directly from the refugee camps, rather than encouraging people to make such a dangerous crossing.

Q: Just picking up on one of the seven questions of my Spanish colleague, if I could ask both prime minister: You just said that you are opposed to the Jean-Claude Juncker proposal for a 160,000 compulsory quota; but has the time not come - obviously Spain and the UK face different obligations under the Lisbon Treaty - to take part in that, if only in spirit?

And secondly, to David Cameron: Mariano Rajoy has just distinguished between migrants and refugees. Does the sadness in the UK shows that the people of Britain do understand that there is a difference between refugees and migrants and has the time not come for you to take refugees out of your net migration target? Because what a lot of the critics are saying is that one of the things that held you back with your announcement is because you are nervous about failing to meet that target?

Mr Cameron: In terms of joining in the spirit of what the European Union is doing, I would argue Britain is doing that. We are saying, look, we're not part of Schengen, and we're not part of the decision-making about this issue, the quota. We happen to think that this is not the right approach, because it can encourage people to make the journey; but nonetheless, we as a moral nation will fulfil our moral obligations and our humanitarian obligations by taking people directly from Syrian refugee camps. And we will work with others in Europe to try and strengthen the external border of Europe, even though we're not a Schengen nation. We've already given assistance on that front.

So I say we are entering absolutely into the spirit of what others are doing, but we have a very clear view that the best way to help people is not to encourage them to make this dangerous journey but to resettle people from the refugee camps.

Do we distinguish between migrants and refugees? Yes, of course we do. The British people do. I do. Our whole system does. We have a very fair asylum system, which if you take a 25-year view has always been in the top four or five in Europe of granting asylum. We should be proud of that. It's a tradition going back four centuries.

There are many people, including members of my own party and of Parliament, whose families came to Britain as asylum seekers. Britain has always discharged our moral obligations, and always will. It's right to distinguish between economic migration and refugees and asylum seekers and that's what our system does.

And in terms of target, I think the British public's view is very straightforward and very sensible. They want to know that taken as a whole; our immigration and asylum system are under good control. That is what they want, that is what I want and that is what the government is determined to do deliver.

President of the Government: You asked me about Juncker's proposal and I don't know that proposal. It hasn't been presented formally to the Spanish government, and as far as I know, it hasn't been presented to any other government.

But what I would like to explain to you is what Spain is doing, and above all what Spain is proposing. Spain is at this point in time the European Union country where most foreigners live as a proportion of the total population. And I said before that more than 10% of people who work in Spain are foreigners, and I don't include in this figure, as I also mentioned before, people who have dual nationality.

I believe that the integration process has been carried out very well in Spain. The vast majority of these people work here, fight for their own interests, to lead a decent life, and work in partnership with the country; and so I believe that the integration process is a model process. And of course, as is natural, they have exactly the same rights as the Spanish.

Spain has also made a great effort, because Spain is the frontier of the European Union with many African countries, trying to structure this whole process, which is what in the end can lead us to real success.

In the European Union, I have suggested to Mr Juncker and to the College of Commissioners some things that have to be done, and will do so again,, because problems shouldn't be resolved when it is already practically impossible to do so; rather, we have to attack the problem full-on. In the case of the right to asylum, we now have a very serious problem with Syria; but if we were capable of putting right the situation in Syria, which is the way to go, we would undoubtedly not have had this problem.

The major problem of immigration for economic reasons is precisely because there are many people on the African continent and in other parts of the world, for whom it's not that they want to leave their country, it's that they can't lead a decent life in their country. So what this is about is supporting these countries and the Commission can do so much better - there are twenty-eight countries in Europe - than can a single country working to defend its own interests.

That is why I have suggested this already to Mr Juncker and I will do so again. We need a comprehensive asylum policy and a comprehensive immigration policy. What we are doing now with the quotas, which Spain will support and which it has already supported, is to solve a particular problem, which is the arrival of many refugees, which is on the increase, as we have all seen these days, and leading to dramatic situations; but we have to put an end to the policy of tackling the problems only when their solution is already difficult. You have to go to the source of the problems and have a medium and long-term vision. And that indeed is what I have asked for and what I will ask the European Commission for again, which among other things has the obligation of implementing policies that the governments will then support, and also work for the medium and long term.

Playing for the short term in any facet of life is of little use, but when it comes to government it could be lethal.

Q: I have a specific question about the situation in Catalonia. First, Mr Cameron. You lived through and played a key role during a process of independence in Scotland. Have you passed on your experience or any type of advice to the Spanish President of the Government with respect to Catalonia? Do you believe that the two situations can be compared, and in this case, should a referendum be held in Catalonia?

And Mr Cameron, if there is unilateral independence; do you believe that Catalonia would continue to be a member of the European Union?

And a very specific question for Mr Rajoy: today Artur Mas has presented a roadmap. He said that he will continue with the independence process if he has a greater number of members of the parliament and that everything depends on political will, the will to negotiate. Is there any opportunity for the Spanish Government in this willingness for negotiation and political deals?

Mr Cameron: All I would say is, like the United Kingdom Spain is a great country with a long and proud history. And if I had a message I suppose it would be the same message I had in the United Kingdom situation, which is we are better off together, we're stronger together, we're more prosperous together, we should stay together.

No two situations are the same; but I think it's very important, and the President of the Government made this point, that whatever situation we're faced with, it's very important that countries, and governments, and prime ministers and indeed those who want to take a different path, all have to obey the rule of law and do things by the rule of law. I think that is very important.

You asked a specific question about the situation with regard to the EU. This was asked during the Scottish referendum and there is a very clear answer, which is if one part of a state secedes from that state it's no longer part of the European Union and it has to take its place at the back of the queue behind those other countries that are applying to become members of the European Union. That I think is the position set out by authorities from the European Commission all the way through to constitutional lawyers around the European Union. So I think it's pretty clear.

President of the Government: On the specific question you asked me, it's clear that there can't be dialogue to see how we can promote the independence of Catalonia: that's the dialogue that Mr Mas wants. What Mr Mas wants is for us to seek how to help him so that Catalonia becomes independent. It's obvious that this is not possible.

I'm not going to engage in dialogue about the unity of Spain or about national sovereignty: first, because I don't believe in breaking the unity of Spain or national sovereignty, because I believe that we have done many things together and we can do more in the future; but above all, because this is up to the people of Spain. In other words, what Spain will be in the future should not be decided and cannot be decided either by Mr Mas, or by the President of the Government of Spain, or by some Spanish people or other Spanish people. That is national sovereignty and it is up to the sovereignty of the nation as a whole and of the Spanish people to decide what they want to do.

I think that the dynamics that have been established are very damaging, and they do not lead us anywhere. I am prepared to engage in dialogue, I always have been; but for two parties to talk the two have to have the will. When one party aims to present to the other a pre-formulated contract, it is clear that things become difficult. What Mr Mas has proposed to me is a referendum on the independence of Catalonia, and I can't accept that because it is up to the Spanish people to decide what they want Spain to be. He knows that but it seems that complying with the law is something that does not enter into his parameters and that is very dangerous because if anyone has to obey the law, it is policymakers.

Thank you very much.